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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
01-26-2011, 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
oh yeah... Cannons AND beams AND torps is too much.

you will be stretched, both for skillpoints and more importantly boff slots. I prefer to drop the beams.
I don't feel streteched for skill points much, though. Beams are only a Tier 2 skills and I am using bog-standard Phasers.

The problem is really the BoFF slots. But I definitely found adding Beam Overload worthwile and better then what I had before. Maybe I should run only Dual Beams up-front.

Ideally I'd prefer to fly a "canon" Defiant - Cannons and QT up front, Beams aft. But that's not really so effective. (I need to whine about that some time.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalarn
Its not waste, but its a lot easier as tactical captain with tactical initiative.
I am actually a Tactical Captain (well, in my Escort). Tactical Initiative might unfortunately one of the skills I use least in my skill rotations. I am terribly bad at this .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
01-26-2011, 03:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I am actually a Tactical Captain (well, in my Escort). Tactical Initiative might unfortunately one of the skills I use least in my skill rotations. I am terribly bad at this .
Yes, because you do not use all 3 weapon categories...if you did, you would see how tactical initiative is great boon to you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
01-26-2011, 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedryk_
TRANSPHASICS ARE A LIE

yes torps are an important part of the burst kit
sci and tac skills to soften shields
energy weapons to take shields down
eng skills to stay alive while it happens

typical

there are seemingly unrelated skill combos to explore as well.
this is a common point all will reach in their own time.

the true test is how you use what you have
then how you work with a team to manage your combined strike
but the most important thing of all is... theyre shiney. i play this game with things i love and i love their look (i love the chrono look and sound too) but transphasics just make me smile a lot
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
01-26-2011, 04:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmoeJoe
Torpedoes are often overlooked due to their seemingly unfavorable statistics. (dps) I aim to elucidate the doubters of the mathematcially undeniable superiority of torpedoes in set circumstances.
First a few simple definitions

damage here i refer to the actual number given in tooltip, shown in () in combat log

dps= damage calculated over a time interval. the tooltip weapon stat dps lists the damage/ that individual weapons cycle time.

bleedthrough= the unmodified (by shield resist) raw 1/10 (or 1/20 for some shields) damage from an attack that penetrates shields and hits hull directly (this is then modified by the hull resists)

kinetic shield damge this damage is mitigated by a flat 25% (+ other resistance buffs that mod shield damage are then applied after)

Damage Overage This is the post shields damage (not bleed thru) that comes from a kinetic weapon "finishing off" the shields and the leftover damage going to hull (modified by hull resist...)

hull damage for torpedoes this is the bleedthru + damage overage

A few hypothetical examples follow.

Suppose a fully shielded cruiser with 12000 shields eats a hard buffed tricobalt (40000 base damage). If he is at minimal shield power, with no other bonus (shield) resistance, using normal bleedthru (10%) he is left with 2000 shields and takes 4000 hull from bledthru only.

This same guy in a paralel universe (call this universe lucky) eats a tric crit for 100000. In same resistance circumstances the situation is slightly more complicated. The resultant damage to shields would be 25000. However, the 13000 overage is now traslated back into hull damge (x4) and results in an instant kill, 52000 damage.

This is what happens when someone like me, gets a crit on someone who has no buffed resists. (see signature)

However, the difficulty of landing a tricobalt means this situation is reserved for sneak surprise attacks, and cnh/kerrat play.

Let us consider quantums.

A fully buffed specced (with consolesx3) quantum torpedo damage can top 10000 (non crit).

Assuming the (noob) situation above, a player launching hyt1 quantums at a guy with 12000 shields might seem liek a bad idea. But lets look further.

The bleedthru is will be but 2000 damage. The shield damge taken would be about 5000. This isnt exactly "worthless" if u ask me. But still marginal at best.

Now back to "lucky land", a say that first quantum gets a lucky crit for 40000 (pushing it, but for example purposes) The shields are not quite completely eaten by this, even with 0 bonus resist assuming 25 shield power. Yet they are left with only 2000 capacity, the next quantum will do some overage (if it was a double crit=death) as the 2500 to shield will translate into a 2000 overage, resulting in 4000+1000+2000 =7000 hulldamage (unmitigated by resist).

So in this case, you are chasing after a cruiser with 10% hull (5000). WHAT DO YOU DO! Hes got max shields and is fleeing at 7-8k range. Well if you get a lucky crit in an hyt.. he dies. Thank bleedthrough and overage. (<<this happens. alot)


But emoejoe why are you talking nonsense about situations that u never encounter, you might ask? Becus no one is just firing torpedoes. Even me.


Lets look at real world example of a proper combined arms burst.

Lets say this same cruiser got wind of his impending doom (he heard boff beeps prior to uncloak...) and he quickly mashes some buffs up on his ship. Boom now hes got an extra 45% shield resist and 50% hull resist.

Burstmaster pops out of cloak, approachign at 150+ speed on evasives/omega/aux to damp bonus. Pops cpb3 (for 5000+ shield drain (unresistable)) unloads a beam overload 3 (for ~10k damage non crit) and slams quantums into the same shield face the bo prepped.

The 12000 shield is dropped down to 7000 instantly. The beam overload hits with ~50% resistance to the shields, hitting them down to 2000. Quantum 1 gets thru the shields with 2k overage, quantum 2 gets thru in full glory. All non crits (but hits ofc) will leave the target down about 10k hull. (throw a couple crits in, the guy is looking at <50%)

^^ this is a burst. This is what you do to ensure torpedoes strike raw hull, among other things. This is also what one player can do alone. Now if u add in a guy on your team doing the energy spam, then the backup/assist user of torpedoes will have an easy day spiking the hull.

Again, the instantaneous burst onf one single torpedo is what takes you over the top. Its what makes that next haz emitters/transfer shield tic moot. The hull % isnt that great. An escort down to 20% only has ~8000 hull. Thats ONE QUANTUM (non crit). Even an uber cruiser at 20% only has 10000 hull points remaining.

The moral of the story, keep the pressureo n the shields they will inevitably go down for a time in the battle. If u design your attack (god forbind coordinate with others) then you almost have a guarantee to penetrate one shield face of any ship (especially if your bro has snb). DURING THIS TIME: TORPEDOES WIN

So if u choose to look at the first few examples u are missing the point. The point is that a combined arms approach, utlizing torpedoes, is par none the absolute best spike or insatnataneous damage available in the game. And im not even really talkign about tricobalts.....

thanks for reading. felt i had to get that out there <S>
The quote: "Eat any good books lately" springs to mind.. Whats with suddenly making well a formulated post all of a sudden?

OT: Great post, certainly shows that Torpedos are more than just for slamming into tiny gaps in the shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
01-26-2011, 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Ideally I'd prefer to fly a "canon" Defiant - Cannons and QT up front, Beams aft. But that's not really so effective. (I need to whine about that some time.)
.
by all means do! I'd never say no to even more DPS

I run a defiant and a raptor that are almost identical. They both have 3xDHC + 1x QT up front, and 2xturret + 1xBeam array aft. I do very well with it in PvP, and every now and then i one-shot someone. Having tried a lot of ways to do alpha-strikes, this seems to be the optmal setup for me at least.

If you've ever noticed (or not noticed) Dee or Icarium decloak off your aft, you probably know what i mean

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/149/ra1z.jpg
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
01-26-2011, 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
by all means do! I'd never say no to even more DPS

I run a defiant and a raptor that are almost identical. They both have 3xDHC + 1x QT up front, and 2xturret + 1xBeam array aft. I do very well with it in PvP, and every now and then i one-shot someone. Having tried a lot of ways to do alpha-strikes, this seems to be the optmal setup for me at least.

If you've ever noticed (or not noticed) Dee or Icarium decloak off your aft, you probably know what i mean

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/149/ra1z.jpg
Turrets on a canon* Defiant is a no-no.

*) Note only one n in the middle
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
01-26-2011, 07:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
The quote: "Eat any good books lately" springs to mind.. Whats with suddenly making well a formulated post all of a sudden?

OT: Great post, certainly shows that Torpedos are more than just for slamming into tiny gaps in the shields.
Well he tested it. Done multiple tests.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
01-26-2011, 07:13 AM
Nothing says "Love ya" like a surprise Tricobalt torp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
01-26-2011, 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle-Phoenix View Post
Well he tested it. Done multiple tests.
yeah i neglected to give kyle the credit due for helping me. thanks again kyle, really appreciate it man <S>
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
01-26-2011, 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmoeJoe
actually there is a marginal increase of damage on bleed thru, but your right, mostly transpahsics are crap. However lets us conisder the times when it may be worthwhile......
I shall NOT consider it!!!
The only time its worthwile is when fighting borg in PvE. And thats not worthwhile at ALL.
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