Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
01-27-2011, 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post

BoP is not an escort, those 6k in hull points mean alot towards survival.

LTC Escort 15,000 Somraw 16,500
Com Heavy 20,000 Qorgh 22,000
Capt Tactical 25,000 Pach 27,500
RA Advanced 30,000 Qin 33,300
RA Fleet 30,000
VA Defiant-R 30,000 Garumba 31,500

all Raptors posses less shield than thier Fed escort counter parts. So it appears that the feds have betetr shield technolgy and the KDF bulks up their vessels physically.
Shields in this game, PvP especially are an odd thing. At times, they seem to have less of an advantage vs hull buffs and do less at keeping a ship from being killed than said hull buffs so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in Fed shields providing such a superior level of protection.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
01-27-2011, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSteel
I like you Roach, your reply is very constructive and on topic. Thank you for that. I'd like to send you a barrel of my finest Blood Wine, on the house!
EDIT:
Irrespective to what the DEV team has labeled the BoP as and irrespective to what it was designed for
in any series, in this game, it behaves like an Escort in PvP. My Defiant shields can only max out at 10k
so its not far off from the BoP but besides, in PvP, I find my shields tend to stay around 50% when at 10k and when I use the +35 console and get them to 11,500k, it does little to improve performance, it just raises the max lvel, a level that is not likely to be maintained in PvP.
Quote:
(9750 is my max shield rating on a PvP BoP, the base damage of a single tric is twice this number)Roach
That said, 9k for the BoP is comparable to my Escort. I have noting against Klingon players but I do feel the BoP has advantages that far outweigh its short comings. and the current "Alpha Strike" is an "I WIN" button whoch isn't supposed to exist in this game, or the Galaxy X would have a functional Spinal Lance Phaser.
The BoP is the only Klingon ship I take issue with.
EDIT II:
Well, you had to add that last little bit in there at the end negating my opening comments! Oh well...I'd still share a Blood Wine with you!
My ire is up over this being another pointless thread that leads to my posting with passion and more than a little anger.
I hold no personal ill-will towards anyone, including you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberion1701
Actually, from what I read in Roach's post, he pretty much backs up what I said.

He won't admit it, but I'd like to thank him for the backup, anyway.
I have not denied that the KDF has its own factional advantages. Nor did I discount that the feds have or needs their own as well.
I do deny that the cloak should be considered an unfair advantage. Its one of our cultural vices and has been apart of the KDF for a longtime. It should no longer be thought of as the boogey-man ability some think it is.
I do deny that the feds should recieve copies of what other factions posses merely for the sake of the perception of balance in pvp.

GO find a Dev and ask them what the uniqueness of the federation is first and see what their reply is.

I think that the average fed player who is upset over the perception of not having uniqueness is misrepresenting the "inventiveness" of Star Fleet as displayed in the genre as an advantage they lack ingame without realizing they are asking for an ephermeral object.

If its just more vessels with special abilites to call your own, see a Dev and push the point to them.
Do not continue to ask for what is mine out of what I percieve as jealousy. Go get your own Unique
Or reassemble Gene and have him rewrite the genre, as these posts are all circular in logic regardless of which view you looking from and serve no purpose but to inflame the forums.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
01-27-2011, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSteel
Shields in this game, PvP especially are an odd thing. At times, they seem to have less of an advantage vs hull buffs and do less at keeping a ship from being killed than said hull buffs so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in Fed shields providing such a superior level of protection.
The downside to a constantly changing game mechanic that is not settled yet. The effectivness of hull or shields changes more often than the cycles of the moon it seems and what worked last month may not work this month and could change again yet another month down the road - all based on perception of unbalance by people whom can't even agree on the simplest of things because they feel such agreement may put their fan faction in a disadvantaged place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
01-27-2011, 04:09 PM
As someone who has PvP'd with both factions, i can say the biggest factor for who wins and who loses is determined by teamwork.
* My experience has been that Feds generally don't work together very well. They don't change targets to focus on the same enemy. They don't share heals with the guy on their team being focused fired on.
Almost all Feds in PvP fly either the Intrepid refit or a cruiser (at end game level PvP). Attitudes indicate that Fed Captains want their vessels to be able to heal away spike damage with no problem, but also deal out significant DPS. Feds do not protect or heal their escorts in PvP. Likely because many fail to understand the concept of spike versus sustained DPS. BOPs are super squishy. Those loaded with heals sacrifice offensive abilities to do so.
* So many people who call the BOP OP have never flown one. I challenge anyone who calls the BOP or KDF OP to try it out. It will be a learning experience.
* For the record I am mainly a Fed player,however, as an escort pilot I grew tired of most PUG quality Cruiser heavy teams and went back to leveling a KDF toon (currently Capt 7). All my toons are Tactical officers.
* Any Fed complaining about Tier 3 and 4 level PvP just doesn't know how to play or is getting bad team ups in PUGs. When leveling a Fed toon through PvP, matches at those tiers (3 & 4), I was seldom in a match where we didn't beat the Klinks. We almost always won unless we had some one real bad on our side bleeding us dry. Ask Roach... he probably remembers. And yes I only PUG... I'm not in a PvP fleet or anything fancy.
* In PUGs on my KDF alt, If I go against a Fed team that works together at all and we don't... we lose. If they don't work together and heal their escorts... and we work together to focus fire and heal each other we will win. It really is that simple. And I have to say I was extremely disappointed in the selection of KDF ships and thier customization option. Feds really have way more to choose from and work with.
* LOL, and the only reason Klinks know what they are going up against in a match is because 90% of Feds Captain Cruisers. Want to surprise them... get in an escort.
* So seriously, folks, stop throwing stones. Stop comparing people to Hitler; stop saying that PvPers are selfish jerks; stop complaining that things aren't canon enough; stop saying the game balance needs to be built around the PVE community because there are more PVE gamers than PvP ones. Either you know what you are talking about or you don't. When you openly state that the game sucks because you don't have two forward torpedo launchers, and 15 phaser strips like on TV; that your Gal X cant one-shot Klinks, and a Dev explains its because of balance issues and you still persist... even accusing others of "favoring their faction," (which really is calling the kettle black), you are hardly a creditable source for information and perspective that game balance judgments/changes should be made upon.

My apologies for the wall of text.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
01-27-2011, 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory275 View Post
As someone who has PvP'd with both factions, i can say the biggest factor for who wins and who loses is determined by teamwork.
* My experience has been that Feds generally don't work together very well. They don't change targets to focus on the same enemy. They don't share heals with the guy on their team being focused fired on.
Almost all Feds in PvP fly either the Intrepid refit or a cruiser (at end game level PvP). Attitudes indicate that Fed Captains want their vessels to be able to heal away spike damage with no problem, but also deal out significant DPS. Feds do not protect or heal their escorts in PvP. Likely because many fail to understand the concept of spike versus sustained DPS. Those loaded with heals sacrifice offensive abilities to do so.
I agree, mostly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory275 View Post
* So many people who call the BOP OP have never flown one. I challenge anyone who calls the BOP or KDF OP to try it out. It will be a learning experience.
So, in order to for me to form the opinion the T5 BoP is a better ship, has a greater tactical advantage
both offensively and defensively, I must first use one? I disagree. The ship stats speak for themselves.
My experience in PvP supports the BoP numbers, especially since it is the ONLY ship in PvP that can affix itself to my aft quarter and be difficult to shake loose. It is also the only ship in PvP that has "Alpha Striked" me to where I need to respawn. But, you aren't listening to any of this, because I haven't used one.
Your another person that thinks opinions can only be formed from first hand experience, not though observation. I differ in that I feel observation is just as valid a means of learning and assessing ones opponent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory275 View Post
Want to surprise them... get in an escort.
I only use an Escort....but it also makes me (and all other Escorts) the primary targets in PvP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory275 View Post
* So seriously, folks, stop throwing stones. Stop comparing people to Hitler; stop saying that PvPers are selfish jerks; stop complaining that things aren't canon enough; stop saying the game balance needs to be built around the PVE community because there are more PVE gamers than PvP ones. blah blah blah blah blah blah When you openly state that the game sucks because you don't have two forward torpedo launchers, and 15 phaser strips like on TV; that your Gal X cant one-shot Klinks, and a Dev explains its because of balance issues and you still persist... even accusing others of "favoring their faction," (which really is calling the kettle black), you are hardly a creditable source for information and perspective that game balance judgments/changes should be made upon.

My apologies for the wall of text.
So, what are you saying, only post things that are in agreement with you? If I disagree, if I feel "x" is overpowered or underpowered then I will say as much. If someone is going to sling dirt in the forum, then dirt is what they deserve right back. What's the expression? What's good for the goose is good for the...

Yes, the game should be balanced for the majority, which ever that may be, Feds, Klinks, PvE or PvP.
Who stated "the game sucks"?
Multiple torpedo launchers is a good idea and many people think so. You don't, good for you.
Who asked for 15 phaser strips?
The Galaxy X is a disappointment to many players, are they all wrong? No one said it should one shot Klingon's (although the BoP Alpha Strike sure can) but when it can't one shot a frigate 33 ranks my junior then yes, I'd say something is amiss.
As for being credible, are you the Star Trek Online version of Dun & Bradstreet? Please...any opinion contrary to yours not being sources by the DEV team will be met with the same hostility as you have shown here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
01-27-2011, 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSteel
I agree, mostly.

I'm glad there is common ground to stand on.

So, in order to for me to form the opinion the T5 BoP is a better ship, has a greater tactical advantage
both offensively and defensively, I must first use one? I disagree. The ship stats speak for themselves.
My experience in PvP supports the BoP numbers, especially since it is the ONLY ship in PvP that can affix itself to my aft quarter and be difficult to shake loose. It is also the only ship in PvP that has "Alpha Striked" me to where I need to respawn. But, you aren't listening to any of this, because I haven't used one.
Your another person that thinks opinions can only be formed from first hand experience, not though observation. I differ in that I feel observation is just as valid a means of learning and assessing ones opponent.


I think that most will find that the experience is slightly different than what they expect from reading the stats. And no one said the BOP sucks... just that it isn't OP and that it really does make sacrifices for BC and four universal BO stations. In my Fleet escort, I have a hard time getting a good BOP Captain off my aft without Aux to dampeners, but I am more survivable generally. That doesn't mean that there needs to be nerfing and buffing of ships/factions. Look, I understand that perspective is reality... that is why I said everyone should try one. My perspective changed when I did...


I only use an Escort....but it also makes me (and all other Escorts) the primary targets in PvP.

LOL. Yeah, I know I fly a fleet escort (no cloak) on my Fed. Welcome to the club.

So, what are you saying, only post things that are in agreement with you? If I disagree, if I feel "x" is overpowered or underpowered then I will say as much. If someone is going to sling dirt in the forum, then dirt is what they deserve right back. What's the expression? What's good for the goose is good for the...

No, I never said that. But you have expressed desire for things that throw game balance out the window so that things can be more canon. You can push for more canon gameplay... but not at the expense of game balance. If you still persist despite impact to balance then IMO this discredits you.


Yes, the game should be balanced for the majority, which ever that may be, Feds, Klinks, PvE or PvP.
Who stated "the game sucks"?
Multiple torpedo launchers is a good idea and many people think so. You don't, good for you.
Who asked for 15 phaser strips?
The Galaxy X is a disappointment to many players, are they all wrong? No one said it should one shot Klingon's (although the BoP Alpha Strike sure can) but when it can't one shot a frigate 33 ranks my junior then yes, I'd say something is amiss.
As for being credible, are you the Star Trek Online version of Dun & Bradstreet? Please...any opinion contrary to yours not being sources by the DEV team will be met with the same hostility as you have shown here.
Where gameplay and balance are concerned... the computer, i.e. PvE does not show balance as well as PvP. Like it or not, that is just how it is. And while my initial post was not targeted at you solely, you have expressed much unhappiness with the game. That the game sucks was inferred from your many posts about the game. Maybe that is unfair, but as someone who has read many if not all your posts, this is what I have walked away with. Goes back to perspective is reality I guess. If I have shown any hostility it was not my intent. Perhaps my frustration with this entire issue has gotten the best of me. But yes, without getting into the GAL X thing, if you can't decimate a ship 33 levels your junior then something is wrong.

Your posts, IMO, indicate that your interest is in improving your toys and does not favor balance. And to be honest, you don't seem to be the most reasonable person on the forums. This, again, is not meant to be hurtful or hostile. You know what you want and you are going after it. That I can respect. But the ends don't justify the means. Don't say you are concerned for balance when what you are really after is a BC for your defiant because you feel it is more canon.
And I have never claimed to be an expert, and I don't post about things I have little knowledge on. I also didn't throw around names or insults. And yes, I am more creditable than someone who spams the forums with half truths, biased perspective, and goes on about subjects they really have no expertise in (no i am not talking about just you... this isn't a personal attack). I have done what many others have chosen not to do, and took the time to learn, play both factions, and I haven't tricked myself into believing I know everything there is to know. What it all boils down to is that I want a balanced game. As they say, I don't have a dog in this hunt.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
01-27-2011, 05:59 PM
Got to agree experiancing vs reading a ships stats is vastly diffrent. And people claiming that being able to put dual heavy cannons on all klink ships is a big advantage dmg wise, thats true for the whole time you can keep those 45 degree arc cannons facing the enemy. Which in a cruiser even a klink one with better turning isnt going to be easy.

You said you got alpha'd right into a respawn cause of a BoP. Well ive got 1 shotted by a defiant in my defiant by a BO3 critical for 76,000 dmg. And i can easily alpha someone to death in my defiant. Its about your build, gear, and boffs.

Every unique thing the klingons have is paid for by equaly good negatives. Want universal boffs lose a console, want a BC harsher shield and hull penalties. Funny thing is im a fed player, klingons arent OP, fed arent OP.

Make a klingon, lvl them up. or go to tribble and test a BoP before you comment on it. Everyone screamed that the excel was going to make the sov not worth flying yet i still see tons of them. Stats arent everything lots of things look better on paper then they turn out to be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
01-27-2011, 06:32 PM
At VA level it has to do with experience and attitude.

I rarely if ever see any emblem farmers on the Klink side. I regularly see Fed emblem farmers who refuse to play, either by flying off or just sitting at the spawn point in order to collect their game toward today's daily.

On the Fed side, I see a bunch of people who target pets before real ships, then carriers, then on down the line. There is a complete lack of teamwork beginning with no one willing to start a team, moving through an unwillingness to even do the most basic focusing of targets, to people who drop out of the team in mid-match because they don't want to share their heals, or think they aren't getting enough heals.

It is rare that i see a Klink team - and I'm talking about the pugs - that doesn't focus fire in a fairly devastating manner, and even more rare to find one that seems disorganized and/or not cooperating with each other.

I have two VA captains on the Fed side, but I've become so discouraged with PvP that I've committed myself to leveling up my Klink alt in February, and if what I believe is true about the difference in attitude, I will probably only PvP on that side thereafter.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
01-27-2011, 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory275 View Post
Where gameplay and balance are concerned... the computer, i.e. PvE does not show balance as well as PvP. Like it or not, that is just how it is. And while my initial post was not targeted at you solely, you have expressed much unhappiness with the game. That the game sucks was inferred from your many posts about the game. Maybe that is unfair, but as someone who has read many if not all your posts, this is what I have walked away with. Goes back to perspective is reality I guess. If I have shown any hostility it was not my intent. Perhaps my frustration with this entire issue has gotten the best of me. But yes, without getting into the GAL X thing, if you can't decimate a ship 33 levels your junior then something is wrong.

Your posts, IMO, indicate that your interest is in improving your toys and does not favor balance. And to be honest, you don't seem to be the most reasonable person on the forums. This, again, is not meant to be hurtful or hostile. You know what you want and you are going after it. That I can respect. But the ends don't justify the means. Don't say you are concerned for balance when what you are really after is a BC for your defiant because you feel it is more canon.
And I have never claimed to be an expert, and I don't post about things I have little knowledge on. I also didn't throw around names or insults. And yes, I am more creditable than someone who spams the forums with half truths, biased perspective, and goes on about subjects they really have no expertise in (no i am not talking about just you... this isn't a personal attack). I have done what many others have chosen not to do, and took the time to learn, play both factions, and I haven't tricked myself into believing I know everything there is to know. What it all boils down to is that I want a balanced game. As they say, I don't have a dog in this hunt.
ok, this is a post I can reply to.

Since it is either being lost in translation or has not been read, I will repeat. All things are possible, this is a game after all. It is just lines of code, not involving anything real or tangible. That said, it is relatively simple to achieve balance, both in PvE and in PvP. Just have a tiered system of PvP not affixed to PvE and not affixed to the rank structure of PvE. This would allow players that may not be enjoying PvP (at the lower PvE ranks) to try PvP when they run out of things to do on the Fed side without the fear of running into the top 10% of Klingon PvP players.

It would also allow for the Defiant R and Galaxy X to have a canon cloak for PvE. It would allow players to grow at the level they are learning, not how it is now, being tossed into the fire and feeling roasted. That was my first PvP experience, if I made it 2 minutes I was shocked. If I respawned less than 10 times, I was surprised. That was then, now is another story but for every other player that would like to try PvP but isn't, a tiered system might bring them to the table.

Yes, I do push for greater canon, because I see the glass as half full. I see the possibilities for canon and balance. I do not think in absolutes. If I didn't have solutions in mind for canon to coexist with balance, I would not suggest it. I am not entirely unhappy with the game but I have identified those areas that I am displeased with and thought about why. I didn't just spout rhetoric about how bad the game is although when the moment gets to me, I am sure I have. I don't have pointed ears so...sue me

The game can easily have its cake and eat it too. The simplest approach is often the best one. If I was to design a Star Trek game with multiple factions, I would use the federation as a baseline, my common frame of reference. I would keep it canon and build the other factions around that. I would realize that the series kept most other races an enigma giving me greater latitude in developing those factions. The technologies held by the federation doesn't need to be watered down, rather the other factions can simply be, beefed up. in the end, it is the same thing but this way keeps things canon for those that identify with the federation faction more so than the others. Some things like the lance beam on the Galaxy ship would be difficult to balance and make canon as anything to balance it mitigates the canon aspect of it. One way to do this might have been to have made the ship extremely difficult to acquire. this way Klingon's wouldn't be getting "one shot" all day in every PvP match. Another would be that it has a 10 minute cooldown and 2k range. There are/were other options than the one cryptic chose.

For some things like the T5 BoP, I have a very imaginative mind and can visualize things readily, I do not need to use one to know I would gladly trade the useless ensign tactical station for universals. I would even trade it for just two of the four as universals. I would also trade the 4th tactical console and 6k hull points for a canon cloak. My point is, I can envision how I would outfit a defiant with universal slots and a canon cloak taking the compromises into account and I believe it would make for a better ship. Something like what the T5 BoP is now.

The T5 BoP is a "scout" ship and yet, it fights like an Escort. In this game, what use is there for a scout ship? None that I can see so you can't tell me that it isn't meant to be so much more than a simple scout vessel. Would a warrior race give fledgling warriors a scout ship for their first missions? I doubt it very much and yet, a BoP is the only T1 ship for Klingons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
01-27-2011, 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddof76 View Post
First question I have is this true? Do Klingons really have an advantage in space pvp or I'm I totally wrong about this?
Second question, If this is indeed true that Klingons have a advantage in space pvp what exactly is the advantage that they have?
Yes Klingons have an advantage called the element of surprise! However, with the use of the new ships they are loosing that. The only advantage that Klingon have is the ideals and cooperation in PvP.

If you play the conquer and control you can see how coordination they have to control the points. Federation players have dificulty in PvP compared to Klingons.
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