Lt. Commander
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# 11
01-26-2011, 03:19 PM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberion1701
I think the main issue is that Klingons have a lot more tools in their toolbox.
we are geared more towards war over exploration.

Quote:
So any given Federation group, even a skilled one, has to be prepared to counter a pretty wide variety of group makeups. Is it a carrier group, is it a cloaking alpha strike group, is a heavy tanking group?
and yet, feds rock the premades and KDf does well in Pugs.

Quote:
When a Klingon group encounters a skilled Fed group.. there is not much mystery about how they will play.
This true. With repetitiveness come experience. An experienced KDF group can Pug very well thanks to experience and the repetitveness on pvp.

Quote:
So, I think thats where the KDF has the edge, they pretty much know what they'll be facing.
It Helps the lines are far from precise. The Feds do have many ships at thier disposal giving many different loads. I believe they offset each other fairly well.

Quote:
Now, I don't think they should be nerfing KDF, or even giving us all of their skills. But I do think they could give the Feds some unique "tools" of their own.
Unique to the fed faction without replication of ours, would not hurt my feelings at all.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberion1701
Still disagree with this - Klingons have more "abilities" due to specialized ships, which makes them more versatile and harder to counter.
That specialization is still just towards war.

Quote:
Feds DO have counters for those specialized things, but the fact is Feds do NOT have their own "special" things that the Klingons have to counter.
This true but historically/genrewise the fed sense of teamwork was their best ability, backed by thier growing technology. What do you propose?
Lt. Commander
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# 12
01-26-2011, 03:23 PM
Klingons usually have more DPS forwards. Feds have it spread out.

So, when feds who are a little on the slow side fight Klingon, they attack them from their front and die.
I see it all the time in PVP. They are advantaged in the Darwinian aspect.
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# 13
01-26-2011, 03:25 PM
In a word, Yes.

But in as far as I can surmise, only with a select few ships. Not oddly enough, the only ones you will encounter in PvP.
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# 14
01-26-2011, 03:31 PM
To be completely honest, I have not seen any sure answer to this. I am mostly a fed player (not always, but my fed character is about 9 levels higher), and we usually win. I'd say the feds win 60-40 in the PvP battles I play in. However, being a commander only, it is possible that i have not seen the true ferocity of the klingons.

Oh yeah, and a note on the fighters: Mines seem to be a good way of dealing with them in my expirience against NPCs. I don't know about PvP
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# 15
01-26-2011, 03:36 PM
Roach: Being "more geared towards War" is true for Star Trek as a whole. But that doesn't work for PVP, because they have to be fun for both sides, and be a balanced as far as capabilities go.

Also, you said:
Quote:
The Feds do have many ships at thier disposal giving many different loads. I believe they offset each other fairly well.
I.... disagree. They have cruisers, science ships, and escorts. LOTS of skins for them, but all three fit into those very narrow groups. So ANY group will have those three ship types.

Even the special ships like the Galaxy Refit, Interpid, etc - ther "specials" are not game changing. The Defiant gives a few players cloak, but its a very specific ship, and you can't cloak a whole group to alpha-strike the klingons (and not just because they'd already be cloaked)

Excelsior is still a cruiser, just with a bit more firepower, and a Nebula is still a science ship (and not a very good one, frankly)

But each of the special klingon ships have "something" that really gives them an edge.

So no, I don't think you're right. Even with 30 ship skins, there are 3 fed ships. There are not a lot of different loadouts for them.

Klingons have the varied loadouts. All cloak groups, 2 types of carriers. Even your new cruiser and science vessels have specials which make them unique.

Each one is a tool in the KDF toolbox. The Feds don't have any that the klingons do not. The reverse is NOT true.
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# 16
01-26-2011, 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberion1701
I.... disagree. They have cruisers, science ships, and escorts. LOTS of skins for them, but all three fit into those very narrow groups. So ANY group will have those three ship types.
The differences between an Intrepid science vessel and a Deepspace Science vessel are staggering. They might be classified narrowly by game documentation but if you're playing a DSSV or RSV the way you do an intrepid, you're doing it wrong.

Quote:
Even the special ships like the Galaxy Refit, Interpid, etc - ther "specials" are not game changing. The Defiant gives a few players cloak, but its a very specific ship, and you can't cloak a whole group to alpha-strike the klingons (and not just because they'd already be cloaked)
Intrepid's hull resist/heal is awesome for tanking. I'm not sure if there is any other ship with as high a survivability potential as a well specced Intrepid (not even a star cruiser).

Quote:
Excelsior is still a cruiser, just with a bit more firepower, and a Nebula is still a science ship (and not a very good one, frankly)
Their boff layouts are different enough to make a huge difference.

The Nebula actually works wonders as an Anti-Carrier ships. It has great potential for carrier spam as well as AoE kinetic damage via GW and EWP. Toss in the detection grid decloaking escorts protecting the carrier and you'd got some great potential. Now add free targeting subsystems and then the upcoming science vessel buff.

You don't seem to be using most of these ships to their fullest potential. This doesn't mean they're imbalanced, rather that your experience in PvP is shortsighted.

See first comment above.

Quote:
But each of the special klingon ships have "something" that really gives them an edge.
No, not really. I think you're confirming beliefs you already had by this point. Each ship at T5 brings something unique to the table (and Feds have more unique ships).

Quote:
So no, I don't think you're right. Even with 30 ship skins, there are 3 fed ships. There are not a lot of different loadouts for them.
How much PvP do you do? The loadouts are significant and change how one plays.

Do you have a Klingon character at BG/LG ranks?
Quote:
Klingons have the varied loadouts. All cloak groups, 2 types of carriers. Even your new cruiser and science vessels have specials which make them unique.
and Feds have unique powers too. You just chose to exclude them because you don't think they change the game (or at least they don't change the game for you when you use them).

Quote:
Each one is a tool in the KDF toolbox. The Feds don't have any that the klingons do not. The reverse is NOT true.
No, it's true. Discounting all the unique fed ships because you don't "think" their powers make a difference but claiming the Klingon ones do, despite only having a KDF Captain yourself.

The Klingon side generally has lower hulls due to the cloaks, meaning there's a fair and equitable tradeoff. They even have shields dropped when coming out of cloak, allowing massive kinetic damage, if you choose.
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# 17 I'm no expert on pvp
01-26-2011, 05:00 PM
But I flew all Fed ships except the Nebula extensively in pve, and have flown most of the KDF ships in pve now, and I do think KDF battlecruisers>Fed cruisers and the BoP's versatility and cloak generally make it generally more formidable than the Fed escort. The Feds have nothing like the Vo'Quv either. It's possible the nerfs it's taking will eliminate it's advantage, but on Holodeck the Vo'Quv is a unstoppable juggernaught in pve.

There are so many moving parts to the PvP in STO that it's harder to pick out just what is causing what. KDF self-selected for pvp enthusiasts from the beginning and gave them nothing but pvp to do for months while the Feds were doing lots of other things. This gave the KDF a huge advantage in pvp. The Intrepid is a somewhat unique tool for the Feds, but the BoPs, the carriers, and the Battlecruisers are pretty unique tools for the KDF.

What I don't think is in doubt is that the KvF pvp is not where it should be. At the very top level Feds compete well with the top KDF, but at every other level the KDF owns the Feds. This isn't adequate because this very top level we're talking about is probably around 50-100 people max. PvP will not flourish unless you have many hundreds/thousands more playing, or else the queues stay empty and that has it's own negative feedback loop that keeps other people from playing. The lack of maps/objectives/ladders/skill ratings and other things most other pvp games have also limit its appeal. I'm not saying exactly what is needed to make pvp flourish in STO, but keeping everything the way it is now will not accomplish it. We seem at an impasse between hardcore KDF players and Fed players in general. The KDF wants to keep every unique thing they have for themselves, the Feds get owned by those advantages except at the top level. The KDF insists that the Feds just l2p, the Feds largely just decide not to pvp at all instead. I pvp mostly when I'm playing KDF myself, since I don't lose more than half of the time when I play there, and I do lose much more of the time when I play Feds. This is in PUGs generally, and as some admit, KDF is better at PUGS because of their experience.

What do I want for the Feds to match up better? Some pet class ship to offset the carriers. Not a carrier per se, but a drone ship or something. More cloaks available for the Feds since right now giving many KDF ships/teams the right of deciding when/where to fight gives them a big advantage. The right of initiative is a big advantage to people who already have more experience. I also want more universal slots for both sides at the top level because top admirals/generals should have more flexibility to outfit their flagship, and this will greatly increase the number of possible builds both sides can field and make pvp a much more interesting/mysterious endeavour. Right now the KDF does have an advantage in largely knowing what they're going to face, this would change that and also give no clear advantage to the Feds since they have more flexibility too. I'm not certain this is the exact answer but from my experience (tons of experience with pve and lots of experience with the ships, only moderate experience in pvp at best) these sound desirable.
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# 18
01-26-2011, 05:26 PM
Yeah I mean, all of the arguing about the DSSV vs RSV vs Star Cruiser or whatever is nice, but they don't have UNIQUE abilities. They're all still science ships with the same set of BO abilities The same abilities that KDF ships have.

The few unique skills the Feds have either: Specifically counter one specific KDF power (Nebula) or are long cooldowns and not game changers. The Defiant stands alone as having an actual unique power... except it shares it with 90% of KDF ships.

Conversely, KDF have these unique powers, traits, ships, or abilities:

The Kar'fi carrier
The Vo'quv carrier (different types of pets)
Orion cruiser w/ special
Gorn science ship w/ special
Birds of Prey w/ Universal (a BoP might be a strong DPS ship or a strong science ship, or balanced)
Widely available cloaking
More DHC availability for Alpha-strike dominance


I don't want them to copy those for Feds. But I want them to give Feds unique tools like that. Not only would it help Feds in PVP, but it would give the KDF more variety in opponents. I can't imagine Klingons like always wading into 4 cruisers and a science ship in 99% of their battles.
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# 19
01-26-2011, 05:50 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines GMMeeko
Lt. Commander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Staran View Post
But feds are already unique tools!
PvP has a culture of insults and bragging that is unappealing to the majority of players. You only hurt pvp and hurt yourself and make yourself less in the eyes of the people who read what you say when you do that.
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