Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-11-2011, 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Hey, Nagorak is not my "advisor"! He's just the cool guy behind the DPS Calculator application that apparantly manages his forum to game time relation better then I do. (I think he does have someone else to help him make these tests, possibly as the victim of all the damage he needs to dish out for statistics)

I would assume that the damage numbers would reflect hits & misses over time as well and averagized out.
Actually, with BFAW the misses wouldn't be averaged out, because I can't do a sustained fire test since the skill has to be activated. With other weapons, missed shots would just add zero damage to the total, so that would reduce the DPS slightly. That said, with the way I test, which is by shooting at a friend in a PvP instance, I'm already at point blank range against a non-moving target, so miss rate would be close to zero, if it's even possible to miss at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
Is anyone else confused as to why DBBs and Beam Arrays don't get the same boost from FAW?

Turrets, Cannons, Dual Cannons, and Dual Heavies all get the same boost from C:RF/C:SV (afaik), so why should DBBs benefit more than Beam Arrays with FAW?
This is mostly true, however Turrets still get a bigger boost from CSV than they do from CRF because when the CSV bug was fixed for cannons, it was not fixed for turrets. This seems to be a common oversight as the energy drain bug was not fixed for turrets when it was fixed for cannons too. I suspect the weapons use separate code paths due to the lower power drain of turrets, but they get forgotten when fixing a "cannon" bug.

My general assumption is anytime things don't scale the same across weapons, it is a bug, and in the case of CSV it's pretty much confirmed as such since the bug was fixed with cannons.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-11-2011, 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Data is confusing and not labelled well at all. Example

1 Dual Beam Bank, FAW2 100
Count(Crit): 1196 (24, 2.01%)
Total(Crit): 661922.083 (17270.605, 2.61%)
Avg (Crit): 553.4465 (719.6085)
Max (Crit): 935.72 (767.967)
Min (Crit): 394.05 (659.704)
Time: 1401.9
DPS: 472.1607

++++++++++++++Dual Beam Banks
Count(Crit): 281 (24, 8.54%)
Total(Crit): 129461.552 (17270.605, 13.34%)
Avg (Crit): 460.7173 (719.6085)
Max (Crit): 480.905 (767.967)
Min (Crit): 394.05 (659.704)
Time: 1401.9
DPS: 92.34721

++++++++++++++Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II
Count(Crit): 915 (0, 0%)
Total(Crit): 532460.531 (0, 0%)
Avg (Crit): 581.9241 (0)
Max (Crit): 935.72 (0)
Min (Crit): 511.849 (0)
Time: 1401.9
DPS: 379.8135

What's the difference between the first and third entries here?

And

1 Dual Beam Bank, FAW MKX 100

1 Beam Array, FAW MKX 100

These are MK X weapons obviously. Does that mean the rest of the weapons are MK I? And what level of FAW is used here, assuming FAW 1? And why haven't the MK X weapons been tested with all three levels of FAW? -given the fact that the DBB's scale with player rather than weapon level that would seem to be required info.

Phaser Spinal Lance, why is this in here at all?

Confusing data needs to presented better before I or anybody else can make use of it. And gaps in MK X testing need to be filled in. And MK XII should also be tested, since that's what we're assuming DBBs are scaling to when using FAW at VA/LG.

More, and better presented data is needed IMHO
I only uploaded that because MustrumRidculy asked about it. I didn't take the time to create a nicely formatted representation of the data.

I uploaded a new file which maybe will be a little bit easier to understand. Regarding the MKX test, I just did that to be sure the scaling was the same at every equipment mark and it wasn't a bug with MK I equipment. The way FAW works, as well as Beam Overload, CRF, CSV is they multiply the underlying weapon damage. The multiplier is always the same, and doesn't scale with skill or anything. Skill just increases your overall weapon damage, so that your total damage is increased when a skill is activated, since it is modifying a larger initial value. You can see this by opening your powers window and selecting a weapon, and then adding or removing consoles that affect that weapon.

As far as the Phaser Lance, I think I just fired that to show it off to a friend, and that's why it's in there. Once again these were only made for personal use, so there was no need for me to remove silly things like that at the time, and I didn't go through the file before uploading it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-11-2011, 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
Well I don't exactly know how to interpret the data in that link, but what jumps out at me is a hugely higher reported number of crits in the same time period with FAW compared to without FAW, more than just 25% from another shot per cycle. But that is only if I'm interpreting it correctly. Otherwise I don't know what to think, beyond the obvious, FAW should increase both standard beams and dual beams by the same amount per rank, and 90% is a ridiculously high damage boost.
I think you're reading the data incorrectly. I admit that it's confusing if you don't know what you are looking at, and the formatting when copied to the forum makes it even less clear because the sub-entries don't remain indented. Anyway, I uploaded a new file, which hopefully is a bit easier to understand.

In fact, with FAW active the combat log doesn't make a note of which shots are crits and which aren't, so it's impossible to determine the critical hit rate with FAW, although I suspect the critical rate isn't significantly different. I suppose I should bug that too, since it's nice to have the crits broken out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-11-2011, 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
to all concerned though;
It merely looks like the mechanics of FAW double the bonus for becuase DBB have double the beams.
Why should the DBB FAW bonuses be changed if such is true?
It wouldn't really make sense because this isn't how Dual Beams are treated in any other instance. The base damage of DBB is 130% that of a Beam Array. With Beam Overload, they multiplier for both Beam Arrays and DBBs is the same, with the DBB total being 30% higher, since its base damage is 30% higher.

Also, even if DBB damage was twice that of Beam Arrays, you'd still expect the scaling to be the same, because the base damage would already account for the "double damage" of dual beams.

The only argument i can see for this not being a bug is that it was designed so that DBB BFAW could compete with Cannons with CRF as a general damage increasing skill for escorts. But with the description of the skill and the way skills tend to work, I think it's more likely this was a bug, rather than an intentional difference.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-11-2011, 02:20 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines GMMeeko
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-11-2011, 02:29 AM
Had a look at the new file. From the looks of it FAW3 increases the DPS of DBB by 58%. Sounds about right to me. Not sure where that 94% number from last time came from though.

However, the single beam only got a 17% increase from FAW3. That doesn't sound right at all. Way, way too low. Lower than the 45% value given by the OP.

I'm looking at it correctly, right? It's the Avg numbers here that I want to pay attention to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
I uploaded a new file which maybe will be a little bit easier to understand. Regarding the MKX test, I just did that to be sure the scaling was the same at every equipment mark and it wasn't a bug with MK I equipment.
From the uploaded file it looks like you've concluded that there isn't any difference in scaling between DBB and single beams in regards to weapons level, however before you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
This is actually reflected in the powers window, however there is a second bug with the BFAW and DBBs, and that is that the values listed are based on the character's level, rather than the equipment mark of the weapon. So, if you don't have exactly the right weapon mark for your level, then the info listed there will be wrong.
So what's up? Is it that the same 'char level instead of item level' bug is present in both BDD and singles?

The new file is easier to read, but seems to completely contradict the original post. If anything I feel more confused than before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
This is clearly bugged and totally imbalanced, anyone thats plays PVP knows this.

This Skill should be balanced with CSV not CRF because they are both mutli target AOE skills. Some douchebags are trying to ague to balance it against CRF. Even though its miles better than CRF at the moment even when it occupies a lower slot and totally OP.

FAW and CSV are mutli target AOE powers , one is for cannons the other beams. They should be balanced accordingly and be scaled to their effective BO level, in fact CSV should be doing more damage than FAW because its a smaller arc, and doesn't auto target.

I think everyone knows this skill OP at the moment, sadly the STO community is made up of alot of douchebags, and the same douchebags that use this are the ones defending it.

Hopefully this thing gets a good hard nefing it deserves, and those talentless FAW F***s can actually learn to aim with cannons if they want to do high forward DPS.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines GMMeeko
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-11-2011, 02:50 AM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines GMMeeko
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-11-2011, 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Had a look at the new file. From the looks of it FAW3 increases the DPS of DBB by 58%. Sounds about right to me. Not sure where that 94% number from last time came from though.

However, the single beam only got a 17% increase from FAW3. That doesn't sound right at all. Way, way too low. Lower than the 45% value given by the OP.

I'm looking at it correctly, right? It's the Avg numbers here that I want to pay attention to?
You might be missing the increased firing rate in your calculations. The average value is per hit of a single shot in a beam cycle, not the entire beam cycle.

So BFAW for Single Beams goes from 350 base damage up to 411 per shot, but the damage in a cycle is 4 times for the first case and 5 times for the second, so 1,400 vs 2,055. That's about a 47 % damage increase overall.
For Dual Beams, the damage moves from 453 per hit (4x per beam cycle) to 717 per hit (5 times per beam cycle), and 1,812 damage vs 3,585. That's about an 98 % damage increase. (Rounded Values all).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
FAW and CSV are mutli target AOE powers , one is for cannons the other beams. They should be balanced accordingly and be scaled to their effective BO level, in fact CSV should be doing more damage than FAW because its a smaller arc, and doesn't auto target.
But CSV hits all targets equally often, and BFAW hits them randomly. The damage buff CSV grants is applied to all targets equally, while the damage buff from BFAW is spread around.

Even with the 94-98 % damage values from the statistics above, just having more then one target means your damage against each target is already reduced. That's not true for CSV - with two targets, you'll still deal more damage against each target individually as if you had hit only one target (barring very suboptimal energy levels).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-11-2011, 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post

But CSV hits all targets equally often, and BFAW hits them randomly. The damage buff CSV grants is applied to all targets equally, while the damage buff from BFAW is spread around.

Even with the 94-98 % damage values from the statistics above, just having more then one target means your damage against each target is already reduced. That's not true for CSV - with two targets, you'll still deal more damage against each target individually as if you had hit only one target (barring very suboptimal energy levels).
Doesn't matter, BFAW still uses a lower slot, and does more damage overall against mutlitple targets, where that damage is equal to each target doesn't matter.

If you get 2 targets , fire FAW against them both you will do more overall damage to both targets combined, than if you where using CSV. Considering the fact that CSV is a higher slot power and has a smaller arc and is miles harder to keep someone in your arc than BFAW, and does even better damage at medium to long range.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-11-2011, 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
Doesn't matter, BFAW still uses a lower slot, and does more damage overall against mutlitple targets, where that damage is equal to each target doesn't matter.

If you get 2 targets , fire FAW against them both you will do more overall damage to both targets combined, than if you where using CSV. Considering the fact that CSV is a higher slot power and has a smaller arc and is miles harder to keep someone in your arc than BFAW, and does even better damage at medium to long range.
It matters quite a lot, since keeping one target (and exactly one target) with BFAW in your firing arc isn't easy either. Also, BFAW _starts_ at Ensign, but it goes up to Lt.Cmdr, and at the levels that it shares with CSV, it needs to be a valid alternative (for beam users) as well.
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