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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-16-2011, 05:45 AM
Quote:
Looking at your post and looking back at the Engines Canne Take it. It seems that the mechanics posted there seem to still be relevant.
The turn rate stuff is interesting. I will have to revisit this to see if it's still all correct. Interestingly it seems that for turning, a power level of 0 yields the base turn rate, not one of 50 (like in most other cases.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-16-2011, 05:45 AM
It was very informational for me back when the game launched. There's other entries as well, including one analyzing the skill point system.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-16-2011, 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi View Post
It was very informational for me back when the game launched. There's other entries as well, including one analyzing the skill point system.
Ironically, I use the skill point one religiously, and use my head to note the changes.

Prelim: Comparing to my bop numbers, the formula is coming out somewhat lower, and I'm trying to figure out if it's because I screwed something up or because something changed presently, The crossover point also isn't right, so I'm not sure.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-16-2011, 06:01 AM
Well, looking at the formula the point where ship and engine modifiers turn from a negative value to a positive value is just past 50 power, depending on how much 'flight speed' is on each type of engine the point where one becomes better than the other will change.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-16-2011, 06:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi View Post
Well, looking at the formula the point where ship and engine modifiers turn from a negative value to a positive value is just past 50 power, depending on how much 'flight speed' is on each type of engine the point where one becomes better than the other will change.
Well when I tested with mark X whites and Mark IV whites I found that the curves were essentially identical on ships with the same impulse modifier, even with vastly different skills the crossover point stayed the same, or very nearly. Even with two different ships of different TIERS.

So far, I've figured out that the numbers I'm getting out of the formula are varying from the ones I got from testing by a constant factor, but different constant factors on the hyper and combat impulse engines (much much larger difference on the hypers, in fact), and am trying to work out where that's coming from atm.

Edit: I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the entire center part of the formula has changed rather dramatically. The way he's got it on engines, the entire power setting/engine modifier section cancels out completely at 50 power, leaving only captain skill and the engine's base speed... but looking at my old data, the difference between that number and my recorded numbers for 50 power...the difference between the two isn't the same on both engine types!

I am presently at a loss, partially due to being tired, but I'm getting the impression that the skill modifier part is probably still right, at least at low tiers, but that the entire section relating to the power level and modifiers has changed somehow, and is turning out a non-zero result at 50 power.

Still trying to work it out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
02-16-2011, 06:45 AM
It's possible that the power section of the formula has changed, I've been running calculations on that part for an escort hyper vs combat mk x, if the formula is still as listed there the hyper should overtake the combat at around 57 power by 0.05, this is basing off the listings at stowiki for engine stats.


Edit: analysing the forumla at power settings below 50 the ship modifier and the engine modifier become a negative value on the speed, hence the lower mod of 0.6 is more beneficial to have as less speed is removed.

take a combat vs hyper in an escort not counting skills or base speed.

Hyper
(11 + (25 - 50) x 0.2 x 1.35)
(11 + -25 x 0.2 x 1.35)
(11 + -25 x 0.27)
(11 + -6.75)
(4.25)

Combat
(12 + (25 - 50) x 0.2 x 0.6)
(12 + -25 x 0.2 x 0.6)
(12 + -25 x 0.12)
(12 + -3)
(9)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-16-2011, 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi View Post
It's possible that the power section of the formula has changed, I've been running calculations on that part for an escort hyper vs combat mk x, if the formula is still as listed there the hyper should overtake the combat at around 57 power by 0.05, this is basing off the listings at stowiki for engine stats.


Edit: analysing the forumla at power settings below 50 the ship modifier and the engine modifier become a negative value on the speed, hence the lower mod of 0.6 is more beneficial to have as less speed is removed.

take a combat vs hyper in an escort not counting skills or base speed.

Hyper
(11 + (25 - 50) x 0.2 x 1.35)
(11 + -25 x 0.2 x 1.35)
(11 + -25 x 0.27)
(11 + -6.75)
(4.25)

Combat
(12 + (25 - 50) x 0.2 x 0.6)
(12 + -25 x 0.2 x 0.6)
(12 + -25 x 0.12)
(12 + -3)
(9)
In my previous thread that I linked, I DID take a bird of prey out with no power skills, and minimal ship skills (I didn't think to spec out of them and am checking the possibility now), and those are the numbers I'm using to check.

I've worked out that changing the -50 section to -37.something gets it very, very, very close to my observed numbers, but not...quite. It's a little off, and not by a fixed amount so that might not be all that's going on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-16-2011, 07:12 AM
Judging by the formula, even at mk 4 the escort should still be even at 56 power with the hyper pulling ahead at 57...

So if the 'cutoff point' is in fact changing based on the impulse modifier...

Perhaps I should do some testing today... wonder if the character copy is working on tribble.. my main has at least 1 ship token to turn in and hasn't used any respecs...

I could easily copy, respec out of all skills, and pick up some equipment to tinker with...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-16-2011, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi View Post
Judging by the formula, even at mk 4 the escort should still be even at 56 power with the hyper pulling ahead at 57...

So if the 'cutoff point' is in fact changing based on the impulse modifier...

Perhaps I should do some testing today... wonder if the character copy is working on tribble.. my main has at least 1 ship token to turn in and hasn't used any respecs...

I could easily copy respec out of all skills and pick up some equipment to tinker with...
Well my escort data is here: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...58&postcount=6

That's actually bird of prey(they have the same impulse modifier) with mark 4 engines, showing the crossover point between 40 and 45, and pre respec test at 42 power had it VERY close....I also recall that at 42 power the 'normal' and hyper engines had the exact same speed, and the combats being very slightly higher.

Some cursory testing with mark Xs seemed to suggest it was probably still in about the same place (though 43 power is well below what my main can manage with her skills).

And I have no respecs left on my klink...I hadn't thought to check tribble though...

Edit: Currently getting tribble going. See if I can knock my tac down to no skills on there and have a go at it with my adv escort with mark x engines.

Edit2: Ugh. Gotta wait for characters to copy. Really outdated and no money!

Edit3: Copy complete, respec Complete, getting the engines and doing this.

Edit4: Already a difficulty: numbers for flight speed on the engine tooltips aren't the same as on holodeck!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-16-2011, 09:22 AM
Prelim results(I can't be arsed to transcribe all this right now):

The engine modifiers are borne out, showing up as 1.35, 1.0, and 0.6 for hyper, combat, and impulse respectively, as that is the difference in speed per five power...approximately(Which makes sense when you consider it's got 'multiply by 1/5' right next to it). There is a tiny bit (0.03 to 0.01) of flutter in the 'full throttle' speed that I'm not entirely clear on what causes it.

there's ALSO a slight, but noticeable trend in *all three* engines: they all have a noticeably lower modifier below 75 power setting, where they suddenly stabilize on the modifiers at the values specified. At very low power settings, the modifier seems to be 0.02 or 0.01 smaller than at high power settings, with a smooth slide back up until it evens out at about 75 engine power. I might think it was just from that flutter except that it's so consistent, and the total variation DOES accumulate, resulting in a noticeable slide, making me think it's probably a real effect.

The crossover point from combat to hyper is definetly somewhere between 40 and 45, looking somewhere towards the middle of the range, consistent with my prior data. The crossover with normal is somewhere in there as well. Respective speeds are 17.12 and 17.71 for combat, 16.87 and 17.85 for normal, and 16.71 and 18.04 for hyper.

the 50 power speeds are 18.30, 18.84, and 19.36, for combat, normal, and hyper respectively. Listed speeds are 13, 14, and 14 respectively, though these are believed to be rounded. All three 50 power speeds are within rounding limits for the base speed +5 of the formula.

Cursory attempt with the formula,extrapolating from the formula to get 'true' engine flight speed values, gives results within 0.12 of observed, but with slight variances complete with minor trends that suggest an additional factor missing.

This leads me to believe the formula is MOSTLY no further off than when he did it...at least in the non-skills part. Since they changed the skills, it's entirely possible the application of the skills has been fiddled with also.
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