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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-16-2011, 08:41 AM
IMO, Hyper Impulse engines are the best for any ship simply because they benefit the most by far from engine batteries. I think they are faster at full impulse as well. There isn't much of a downside at low power (25) either since you'll probably have ~50 engine power anyway with engine efficiency and performance maxed. Cruisers/SV's/etc might lose a few points of speed/turn at minimum engine power with Hyper's, but any increase in engine power (battery, eps transfer, epte, speed setting) will benefit Hyper's the most.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Okay, I figured out my mysterious mystery problem, and also quite possibly why the curves are different too, all in one fell swoop.

The fspd, the flight speed from the engine's tooltip, isn't a constant on a given engine. How I forgot this I don't know, because I'd noticed it before.

those mark 4 white engines are showing up as having base speeds of 8.6 (hyper) and 9.6 (combat) with a cruiser set as current, and change to 12(hyper) and 11(combat) when an escort is selected!

This almost certainly accounts for the variance in the charts: Somehow, the ship type is also affecting the tooltip speed on the engine, IN ADDITION to the multiplier on the power setting!

There really IS a factor missing somewhere, and this also probably means that there's a hidden 'base speed' on the engines too!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-16-2011, 09:00 AM
Yeah, after my first run with my sci ship I started writing down the power speed listed in the tooltip to plug into the forumla to see if it pans out and noticed the tooltip changing as well.

Got 4 sets of data here, my character didn't copy before I went in so I used the ones from when I copied at my last promotion to look at the ship visuals. Also had to do some exploration missions to get enough badges for a set of engines... -_-;

So I did a Nova, an Akira, a Miranda, and the NX.

The Nova and Miranda showed the same speed tooltip on the engines and for the most part had the same impulse numbers at each power level.

The akira and NX had higher tooltip numbers, the Akira moreso. Also, the toolrips for the akira had the combat showing the lowest flight speed... as opposed to all the others having the combat showing the highest base speed in the tooltip...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-16-2011, 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi View Post
Yeah, after my first run with my sci ship I started writing down the power speed listed in the tooltip to plug into the forumla to see if it pans out and noticed the tooltip changing as well.

Got 4 sets of data here, my character didn't copy before I went in so I used the ones from when I copied at my last promotion to look at the ship visuals. Also had to do some exploration missions to get enough badges for a set of engines... -_-;

So I did a Nova, an Akira, a Miranda, and the NX.

The Nova and Miranda showed the same speed tooltip on the engines and for the most part had the same impulse numbers at each power level.

The akira and NX had higher tooltip numbers, the Akira moreso. Also, the toolrips for the akira had the combat showing the lowest flight speed... as opposed to all the others having the combat showing the highest base speed in the tooltip...
Yeah, the variance is some funkyness going on with the engine base speeds by ship type. And it's NOT the impulse modifiers, I checked. The numbers don't work out. It isn't the inertia modifier either. There's apparently some other, unknown factor related to the ship type that modifies the base speed on the engines, and really, really pushes down the crossover point for escorts.

looking at my escort data, it also looks like there's probably another, very small, factor tied into the power levels somehow... despite what the tooltips say, I get the feeling they might actually be using 75 power as their reference point, not 50...

Overall I think the formula is very, very close but isn't quite right...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-16-2011, 09:17 AM
I'm not sure if this helps, but in my time studying how weapons work I figured out that things didn't work like I expected. The reason being, is that I expected that weapon damage would be determined like this:

Base Weapon Damage * Mark * Skill

But it was actually:

Base + (Base/10 * Mark) + (Base/100 * Skill).

In other words, rather than all being multiplied together, there were three distinct parts which were added together. You get the exact same skill bonus whether you use a Mark I or a Mark XII, which was totally unexpected to me.

So, it's possible the actual equation for engines follows something similar and it isn't just a straight multiplication of all factors. Anyway, I'm just throwing this out there, and maybe it won't be any help.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-16-2011, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagorak View Post
I'm not sure if this helps, but in my time studying how weapons work I figured out that things didn't work like I expected. The reason being, is that I expected that weapon damage would be determined like this:

Base Weapon Damage * Mark * Skill

But it was actually:

Base + (Base/10 * Mark) + (Base/100 * Skill).

In other words, rather than all being multiplied together, there were three distinct parts which were added together. You get the exact same skill bonus whether you use a Mark I or a Mark XII, which was totally unexpected to me.

So, it's possible the actual equation for engines follows something similar and it isn't just a straight multiplication of all factors. Anyway, I'm just throwing this out there, and maybe it won't be any help.
Well the formula from engines cannae take it is very, very, very close, and seems to be factoring the skill in properly... but even with the skills removed it's not...quite right. Not helped by the rounding on the tooltips.

But in my data there's some evidence of a completely missing factor, which also suggests 75 power as being some sort of important baseline in the formula somewhere, but doesn't yet make it clear just how that works.

There's also glaring evidence that the 'engine base speed' isn't just based on the mark level of the engine, but on the shiptype it's being put on as well...and isn't obviously related to the impulse modifier.

The part that seems to be wrong actually seems to primarily be that the 'fspd' variable is actually much much more complex, being a mini formula itself instead of just a number. And like I said, there's a hint of something being off with the power section too, but only very slightly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
02-16-2011, 09:35 AM
I tested using MK 2 engines as those were easiest for my character to get, all of them base white engines.
If it makes any difference the character that I had available to use was commander 1.

Edit for typo in data entry... Also going to plug these numbers into the formula and see how they stack up.

Incoming horribly formatted by underlines... >.>

Nova impulse 0.15
tip_____8.7_______8.2_______7.8................... tip_____8.7_______8.2_______7.8
type____Com_______Imp_______Hyp............type___ _Com______Imp_______Hyp
25_____11.43______9.43______7.75.............25___ __-0.02_____-0.02______0.02
30_____11.89_____10.19______8.77.............30___ __-0.01_____-0.01______0.02
35_____12.35_____10.93______9.78.............35___ __-0.00_____-0.02______0.02
40_____12.78_____11.69_____10.79.............40___ __-0.02_____-0.01______0.02
45_____13.25_____12.44_____11.81.............45___ __-0.00_____-0.01______0.03
50_____13.68_____13.19_____12.82.............50___ __-0.02_____-0.01______0.02
55_____14.14_____13.93_____13.82.............55___ __-0.01_____-0.02______0.01
60_____14.58_____14.17_____14.84.............60___ __-0.02_____-0.53______0.02
65_____15.04_____15.44_____15.85.............65___ __-0.01_____-0.01______0.02
70_____15.50_____16.18_____16.87.............70___ __-0.00_____-0.02______0.02
75_____15.93_____16.95_____17.88.............75___ __-0.02_____-0.00______0.02
80_____16.40_____17.70_____18.89.............80___ __-0.00_____-0.00______0.02
85_____16.83_____18.44_____19.90.............85___ __-0.02_____-0.01______0.02
90_____17.29_____19.19_____20.92.............90___ __-0.01_____-0.01______0.02
95_____17.73_____19.95_____21.92.............95___ __-0.02______0.00______0.01
100____18.19_____20.69_____22.94.............100__ __-0.01_____-0.01______0.02


Akira impulse 0.20
tip_____10________11_________11.................ti p_____10________11_________11
type____Com_______Imp_______Hyp..............type_ ___Com______Imp_______Hyp
25_____12.19_____10.68______9.44..............25__ ___00.19_____-0.32_____00.19
30_____12.79_____11.70_____10.79..............30__ ___00.19_____-0.30_____00.19
35_____13.39_____12.69_____12.14..............35__ ___00.19_____-0.31_____00.19
40_____13.99_____13.68_____13.48..............40__ ___00.19_____-0.32_____00.15
45_____14.58_____14.70_____14.83..............45__ ___00.18_____-0.30_____00.18
50_____15.20_____15.69_____16.18..............50__ ___00.20_____-0.31_____00.18
55_____15.79_____16.68_____17.45..............55__ ___00.19_____-0.32_____00.10
60_____16.38_____17.69_____18.89..............60__ ___00.18_____-0.31_____00.19
65_____16.99_____18.69_____20.24..............65__ ___00.19_____-0.31_____00.19
70_____17.58_____19.70_____21.59..............70__ ___00.18_____-0.30_____00.19
75_____18.20_____20.69_____22.94..............75__ ___00.20_____-0.31_____00.19
80_____18.79_____21.68_____24.29..............80__ ___00.19_____-0.32_____00.19
85_____19.38_____22.70_____25.64..............85__ ___00.18_____-0.30_____00.19
90_____20.00_____23.69_____26.99..............90__ ___00.20_____-0.31_____00.19
95_____20.59_____24.69_____28.34..............95__ ___00.19_____-0.31_____00.19
100____21.20_____25.69_____29.70..............100_ ___00.20_____-0.31_____00.20


Miranda impulse 0.15
tip_____8.7_______8.2________7.8.................. .tip_____8.7_______8.2________7.8
type____Com_______Imp________Hyp............type__ __Com______Imp________Hyp
25_____11.44______9.43______7.76.............25___ __-0.01_____-0.02_____00.03
30_____11.89_____10.18______8.75.............30___ __-0.01_____-0.02_____00.00
35_____12.34_____10.94______9.78.............35___ __-0.01_____-0.01_____00.02
40_____12.78_____11.70_____10.80.............40___ __-0.02_____-0.00_____00.03
45_____13.24_____12.43_____11.80.............45___ __-0.01_____-0.02_____00.02
50_____13.68_____13.18_____12.82.............50___ __-0.02_____-0.02_____00.02
55_____14.14_____13.94_____13.81.............55___ __-0.01_____-0.01_____00.00
60_____14.60_____14.70_____14.84.............60___ __-0.00_____-0.00_____00.02
65_____15.04_____15.43_____15.86.............65___ __-0.01_____-0.02_____00.03
70_____15.50_____16.18_____16.86.............70___ __-0.00_____-0.02_____00.01
75_____15.93_____16.94_____17.88.............75___ __-0.02_____-0.01_____00.02
80_____16.39_____17.70_____18.90.............80___ __-0.01_____-0.00_____00.03
85_____16.83_____18.45_____19.90.............85___ __-0.02_____-0.00_____00.02
90_____17.29_____19.19_____20.92.............90___ __-0.01_____-0.01_____00.02
95_____17.75_____19.94_____21.92.............95___ __-0.00_____-0.01_____00.01
100____18.19_____20.70_____22.94.............100__ __-0.01_____-0.00_____00.02


NX Impulse Mod of 0.17
tip_____9.3_______9.2_______9.2................... tip_____9.3_______9.2_______9.2
type____Com_______Imp_______Hyp............type___ _Com______Imp_______Hyp
25_____11.73______9.93______8.44.............25___ __-0.02_____-0.02_____-0.02
30_____12.25_____10.80______9.57.............30___ __-0.01_____-0.00_____-0.04
35_____12.76_____11.63_____10.73.............35___ __-0.01_____-0.02_____-0.02
40_____13.28_____12.50_____11.86.............40___ __-0.00_____-0.00_____-0.04
45_____13.78_____13.34_____13.02.............45___ __-0.01_____-0.01_____-0.03
50_____14.30_____14.20_____14.16.............50___ __-0.00_____-0.00_____-0.04
55_____14.80_____15.04_____15.32.............55___ __-0.01_____-0.01_____-0.02
60_____15.30_____15.88_____16.45.............60___ __-0.02_____-0.02_____-0.04
65_____15.82_____16.74_____17.61.............65___ __-0.01_____-0.01_____-0.03
70_____16.32_____17.58_____18.74.............70___ __-0.02_____-0.02_____-0.04
75_____16.84_____18.44_____19.90.............75___ __-0.01_____-0.01_____-0.03
80_____17.34_____19.29_____21.04.............80___ __-0.02_____-0.01_____-0.04
85_____17.86_____20.15_____22.20.............85___ __-0.01_____-0.00_____-0.03
90_____18.36_____20.98_____23.33.............90___ __-0.02_____-0.02_____-0.05
95_____18.88_____21.84_____24.49.............95___ __-0.01_____-0.01_____-0.03
100____19.38_____22.69_____25.62.............100__ __-0.02_____-0.01_____-0.05
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-16-2011, 11:16 AM
Blatantly Ripping off your thingy!!!!

Adv. Escort w/ efficient borg BO
tip______13(.25)___14(13.75)__14(.25)
type____Com______Imp_______Hyp
25_____15.35_____13.92_____12.73
30_____15.94_____14.90_____14.05
35_____16.53_____15.98_____15.38
40_____17.12_____16.87_____16.71
45_____17.71_____17.85_____18.04
50_____18.30_____18.84_____19.36
55_____18.89_____19.81_____20.69
60_____29.48_____20.80_____22.02
65_____20.07_____21.79_____23.34
70_____20.66_____22.77_____24.67
75_____21.25_____23.75_____26.00
80_____21.85_____24.75_____27.35
85_____22.45_____25.75_____28.70
90_____23.05_____26.75_____30.05
95_____23.65_____27.75_____31.40
100____24.25_____28.75_____32.75

And comparing to the formula...I've got some kind of non-linear modifer going, but I can't see how frankly as I don't have any speed or engine power related skills left...plus a linear factor too! All four are off by exactly 0.25 from the formula at maximum speed, but by different and somewhat random (but frequently larger) amounts towards the lower end.

Somethin' fishy is goin' on, probably a piece of gear I didn't notice or something.

Edit: Oh for crap's SAKE. No wonder it poofs off at 75 power. I left my borg boff with efficient on in there, so I probably had fractionally higher engine power levels. Not high enough to go up a digit but obviously enough to affect the numbers. That'd be the nonlinear factor..but where the heck is the .25 coming from?

Edit2: Alright, fiddled with the formulas. After assuming that the ACTUAL tip values are 13.25, 13.75, and 14.25 for the combat, impulse, and hyper in that order, the .25 variance went away and the formula numbers now agree PRECISELY with my observed values between 75 and 100 power, where the efficient BO would have no effect.

I consider it likely that if I retest with the borg BO pulled that data will agree precisely all the way down... and your variance in your nova can easily be explained by the variance I noticed in the speeds...

I feel so dumb now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-16-2011, 11:31 AM
Come to think of it, I probably had my borg on there as well, but my Nova comparison doesn't show much deviation. apart from the -0.53 which was probably just an error writing the number down on my part.

The akira on the other hand is showing some interesting comparisons...
Yours as well, the impulse is showing lower than the calculated value while the combat and hyper show higher...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-16-2011, 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taran_Tatsuuchi View Post
Come to think of it, I probably had my borg on there as well, but my Nova comparison doesn't show much deviation. apart from the -0.53 which was probably just an error writing the number down on my part.

The akira on the other hand is showing some interesting comparisons...
Well the minor variations are well within the 0.02 flutter I've observed every time I've tested. I've noticed that frequently, when I change power settings, the speed it shows changes slightly after a few seconds, specifically dropping by 0.02, generally.

I've also observed some variance in a case where the skill modifier turned the speed per 5 power to have more than two decimal places, where you start to get rounding errors that bounce it around a bit, too.

Your nova doesn't look like it had the borg, because it's not showing a nonlinear variance like mine was, but your others might've.

Edit: So now we're just down to the unaccounted for variation in the tooltip speed, which is almost certainly what moves the crossover point from 57 power down to about 43 power on escorts.

The question is, do DSSVs, which have a .17 impulse mod, and delta flyiers, with a .24, have 3rd and 4th data sets because they get different tooltip speeds too? Or is that just an escort/cruiser thing?

Edit2: Looking at your akira variance, being a linear variance it's probably the rounding error in the tooltip speed, nothing more....rather like how I 'corrected' the speeds on mine.
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