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# 101
02-17-2011, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
I've heard it may be related to a concept know as: "unpleasable fanbase"
But wouldnt that mean every ST movie would get an equally bad rap? Why is TWOK generally loved if there is an "unpleasable fan base"?
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# 102
02-17-2011, 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
But wouldnt that mean every ST movie would get an equally bad rap? Why is TWOK generally loved if there is an "unpleasable fan base"?
The exception proves the rule... and even bad films have high points and Trek has some high points. But TWOK was awsome.
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# 103
02-17-2011, 10:52 AM
*******edit*********
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# 104
02-17-2011, 11:18 AM
Except they all pretty much do get a bad rap from one segment of the fan base or other. WoK probably is the most universally liked but even it has its haters. We need look no farther than ST XI to see how deeply divided the fans are about films that are generally regarded as quite good.
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# 105
02-17-2011, 11:34 AM
Nemesis blundered in so many ways. I used to have a list of what I liked/didn't like on another message board, but it's been derezzed. I did, however, come up with a summary of what I thought would make it a better movie though. Please keep in mind I'm not trying to say this concept is the greatest retake of all time, but with the info I had to work with from the final product, I came up with this in less than 1 hour. How many years did Berman's crew and Logan have to work on and write the movie we got? Anyway, here it is:



1.Shinzon is an adult, so basically Stewart plays a double role. He's been trained to kill and aquire data by the Tal Shiar. This was done during the Dominion War, but when the Empire (somewhat unexpectedly) decides to join the Federation-Klingon Alliance (see DS9's In the Pale Moonlight) they opt not to use him, and instead, send him to oversee Remen slave laborers.


2.Years later, Shinzon's resentment towards the Romulans has built up as he realizes his talents have been wasted. During this time, he's been convincing the Remens to rally to him when the time is right.


3.Remens are still a slave race with a light complex, but don't look all oogly-boogly like Nosferatu in space. There are two types - those designed for strength (heavy labor) and those who are "weak" and relegated to menial tasks (servants.)


4.The Scimitar is a Romulan ship, but NOT constructed in the home system. And yeah, it's got some nasty weapons, but they are biological.


5.The stronger Remens (who are used as construction labor) rally to Shinzon when they have a chance to steal a Warbird and the Scimitar via help from the "weaker" ones who have stolen the access codes.


6.The Senate is killed by a Remen servent who's a suicide bomber. They're killed by a biological weapon which would be used again later in the story.


7.Shinzon makes the Romulans his targets since, y'know, they screwed him over. While on pratrol near the Neutral Zone, the Enterprise intercepts his broadcast-only threats via open channels throughout the Empire and nearby space. In other words, no one would know he's a Picard clone to allow for a (somewhat) surprise intro for Shinzon when he's visually introduced to the audience.




The whole movie would basically be a race between the Enterprise and the Scimitar to Romulus as the two ships spar throughout the movie. The aspect of the "nemesis" is about Picard seeing what could have happened to a person like himself if his talents and human nature were cultivated for deceit and treachery, over exploring and diplomacy. Those latter aspects are still there, but the intent is distorted. The clone has retained all the aspects which made Picard a good commander, but also those which made him a hot-head when he was younger. This would also address the whole aspect of age and wisdom within the character. In addition, by making the Remens less "eeeeevil" and more of a struggling group who've been abused for centuries by the Romulans, you cultivate sympathy for their cause and may even want their "side" to achieve some sort of victory over their oppressors. If the entire scenario is played out like this, not only do you care about what happens next, but you also have the Romulans back to where they belong - as an adversary of the Federation. Oh, you can still have Donatra cozying up to the Feds near the end - in fact, I'd have her save the Enterprise by taking out the stolen Warbird at the last minute - but overall, they remain the primary cause of the problem as the "quiet" enemy throughout the story.




Throw out the wedding scene.
Throw out the B4 Mcguffin.
Throw out the dune buggy chase.
Throw out the "I need Picard's DNA!" but are in no hurry to get it.
Throw out the Picard-Picard dinner date.
Throw out the Troi mind ****.
Throw out the death of Data.
Throw out the idea that we gotta be another TWOK and let this movie stand on it's own 2 feet.




Do all that, and you're left with plenty of story and action time. Focus on the main character, and how everyone can contribute to his success, and everything else falls into place. When it comes down to it, Picard is the main character. Sure you have the rest of the cast, and it's a little different when you're doing a series and 24 + episodes a season to visit every character's issues, but on the big screen, you only have 2 hours, and within that time you gotta have someone for the audience to focus on, identify with and cheer for immediately. He's the leader and primary hero, thus should remain the central figure in the movies. Since they were so dead-set on having a Picard clone, this would have been perfect, plus they wouldn't have needed to hire another actor and saved on yet another expense.

One of the main problems with these TNG movies is the writers kept trying to fit Data into every aspect. While cool in his own right, he was overused in the movies, and not always in a positive way. 1st Contact was probably his best movie appearance since it was more balanced with the rest of the cast, and it didn't cut into Picard's time in an abnoxious or useless manner. Really, what was the point of having the B4 subplot? To have some weird parallel between Picard and Data? Why? It really wasn't necessary in the least, and basically cut into the story time.

**Sigh** maybe they should have just ended TNG with "All Good Things..."

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# 106
02-17-2011, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archanubis
In short, it should have been Star Trek VI, not Star Trek II, that provided the inspiration for Nemesis.
Before the true abomination was fully unveiled, that's what I thought it was going to be *sniffle*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerhelm View Post
I kinda thought it was because they basically copied Star Trek Wrath of Khan almost exactly...
Aye. At low resolution, without color, on a machine running out of toner.
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# 107
02-17-2011, 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
Awesome? It crapped all over TOS and wrecked two timelines, the original through the destruction of Romulus (kudos to Cryptic for salvaging that) and the new one through the destruction of Vulcan. The reimagined Kirk and Spock are crappy, being promoted from cadet straight to captain is *censored*, the story requires you to read a prequel comic to make halfway sense of it, not mentioning that now they brought out another comic to explain where Nero was for 25 years with the Narada. Of course he got psychic powers through drugs and met V'Ger who told him how to find Spock.

"Awesome" is the completely wrong word.

Nemesis is awesome when compared to Abrams-Trek. But simply bad when compared to anything but Insurrection. It rehashes the plot of WoK adds cheap action sequences and shock effects, mocks the viewer (oh, let's show a picture of Picard as a cadet, but our audience is dumb, so let's show him with a shaved head, otherwise they won't realize it's Picard). Grrrrrrr.

see what i mean?
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# 108
02-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Well if ST:N got as much money as JJ Trek, it would have been epic.

But I'm still more of a fan of ST:N than of JJ Trek.....JJ's universe is filled with too many paradoxes from the start.......and too many Star Wars easter eggs in it As a MOVIE JJ Trek was ok...but as a Star Trek film...well I believe this is the end of the Prime Universe that has been around for 40+ years.

Now we'll haev to deal with people who don't know about the 40+ Prime Universe and will take JJ's Universe as canon
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# 109
02-17-2011, 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CedricO
tbh, i found every star trek movie fun to watch. except the abomination made by JJ abrams.
I quote this because this is how I feel personally.

I like some movies more and some movies less, but I flat out hate J.J.s trek.

In all I found Nemesis ok, but to be honest, I never liked the data sub plot. I find it sad that B4 was allowed to be alive, but then suddenly he starts to become his younger brother as the memories come back. I think if Data truely had any humanity in him (which he proved with his sacrifice) that he would eventually reboot so to speak, find out what he did and how he saved everyone, and then build himself a new body and give B4 the chance to live and to grow as he and lore were given.

I say this because, even if no one else in the whole galaxy knows how to make a posotronic brain Gerodi and Data do, I mean they were constantly messing with it. And they even installed an emotion chip. I mean after having the emotion chip and studying it for an entire year before installing it I think as smart as Data was he could build another one of those too.

I also disliked the ARGO scene.
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# 110
02-17-2011, 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus_Prime View Post
Throw out the wedding scene.
Throw out the B4 Mcguffin.
Throw out the dune buggy chase.
Throw out the "I need Picard's DNA!" but are in no hurry to get it.
Throw out the Picard-Picard dinner date.
Throw out the Troi mind ****.
Throw out the death of Data.
Throw out the idea that we gotta be another TWOK and let this movie stand on it's own 2 feet.
I'll say it again: like the two other stinkers of the TOS/TNG movies, 'The Final Frontier' and 'Generations', 'Nemesis' might be a poorly-executed, illogical movie (if watchable, and with top-notch production values and a really great Jerry Goldsmith score), but it feels like there's a decent movie in there somewhere, screaming to be let free.

If someone had done most of the above (maybe just tweak the wedding scene a little - it's not totally bad), we'd have probably had that decent movie... Oh well - at least it doesn't crap all over Kirk and undo the poetic ending of 'The Undiscovered Country' - 'Generations' did both, and I hate it with a passion for doing so.


The worst problem with 'Nemesis', as you rightly pointed out, is the same as Abrams' movie - this dumb idea of having to redo/'out-do' 'The Wrath of Khan'. Look at both of them - 1-dimensional villain with a paper-thin revenge motive, stupid macguffin superweapon that ranks among the worst examples of poor science in Trek, cheap shock 'stunt' deaths that lack the class and again, poetry of Spock's sacrifice in TWoK, etc. It's almost like TPTB see the affection for that movie, and try and boil it down into an easily-remakeable 'formula'.

What makes me laugh is that the one thing they DON'T copy from TWoK is the ship design - the Reliant was a cool addition to the Trek universe, and managed to be authentic-looking while still being distinct from the Enterprise. In 'Nemesis' and 'Trek '09', we get illogical, fanboy-ish 'uber-ships', which we're supposed to accept were built by slaves/miners, despite being huge, state-of-the-art... ...and totally unlike anything else seen in Trek before!


So yeah - it's not a case of Trek fans being 'impossible to please'. It's simply a case of knowing a sub-par movie when one sees one. No-one decries Roger Ebert as being a 'killjoy' when he gives a film a negative review, now do they?
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