Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
02-18-2011, 09:50 PM
I sense a disturbance in the Force...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
02-18-2011, 10:12 PM
1) The 25ish year gap between Nero arriving and his revenge on Spock. Plot hole?

There are multiple reasons why THIS DOES NOT MATTER.
First let us look at a popular definition of "plot hole.Ē
ďA plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the storyís plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviors or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences a plot hole is one that is essential to the storyís outcome.Ē

First off the gap has been explained in the deleted scenes, the script, the novelization and comics. So really, itís not unanswered in canon.

Lets assume however that most people are ignorant of these answers. Or that they donít accept them for no real reason besides stubbornness. It still doesnít matter. Why?

A. It doesnít contradict anything. Nothing. Nothing at all. Thereís nothing to say that he canít just wait. The information is wholly unimportant to the plot of the story. Does it really matter why Nero waited? Even if he was insane enough on revenge and hurting Spock to wait 25 years for himÖ thatís a good enough reason. But the reason doesnít matter being it doesnít contradict anything and itís not inconsistent with anything.
B. Not everything has to be explained. Look at the TV show Lost which JJ was also a part of. The writing there is phenomenal. They explain so little! Itís frustrating to some but itís still unimportant to the plot.
C. It doesnít go against the flow of the storyline. The storyline is intact since itís not a story about Nero. Neroís story is largely unimportant in the whole story of Star Trek í09. They threw out his motivations and the reasoning behind him. Thatís all they needed to do since the story was more about the crew getting together and Kirk and Spock, the destruction of a world and threat to Earth.


Now a lot of people donít buy Neroís motivations. They donít find him logical. Please, people take some psychology courses. People arenít always logical. In fact usually theyíre not.

A. People have gone insane for SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than their planet and family blowing up. People have done far crazier things. Sometimes for different reasons and motivations.
B. Ever heard of the Japanese Holdouts? These were Japanese soldiers who kept on fighting way past the surrender of Japan. The latest one gave up in 1974. That is 29 years after the war ended!
C. How about the people who kill other people over what to watch on TV? Or over peanut butter? The motivations of Nero are by far realistic and in his own way ďlogicalĒ to the character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotD
It is important because Nero disappears despite having an uber-ship and having been seen by the Federation ship he destroyed. For 25 years nobody sees this ship again despite it apparently being in a part of space in or around the Federation that he's apparently been checking periodically for Spock.

And him not doing anything for 25 years goes completely against the flow of ALL logic. Logic would dictate going right to Romulus to warn them of the impending doom. Logic would have his crew overthrow him after a few years of just sitting around waiting for Spock to show up rather than either taking their revenge on Federation planets, Vulcan or otherwise, or going back to Romulus or trying to find a way back to the future or any number of other, less insane things to do.

Of course, logic would mean he would want revenge on the idiots in the Romulan government who ignored his warnings in the future rather than the one guy who actually attempted to help him out...

But if you don't want to call it a plot hole, so be it. We can simply call it bad writing.

As far as its popularity, whopdeedoo. Transformers II's box office returns made that movie's box office returns look like it was the profit from a little girl's lemonade stand, but nobody's going to argue Transformers II is a good movie or well written.
No, it is NOT important. Itís not a plot hole. There are literally thousands of logical explanations as to what he could have done in that time. Heck, again they were explained in the deleted scenes, novel, comics, etc.
Itís not important and has NOTHING to do with the main plot of the movie. Absolutely nothing. Itís not bad writing. Itís that you donít know what bad writing is. What Nero did in the gap is largely irrelevant to the plot as a whole.

It doesnít go against all logic. Crazy people do crazy things. Lets assume he just waited (which he didnít according to all real sources). Thatís the worst case scenario. Do you know how many people do crazier things? If anything it was logical for his character. He needed to get revenge on Spock and heíd wait 25 years to do it.

His crew was fiercely loyal and looks to have lost their families too. If Nazi Germany could come into existence then this SINGLE CREW could support their captain. Itís NOT farfetched. In fact there was likely a complex group psychological problem going on here and itís realistic to assume that the whole crew might have blamed Spock just like Nero. If there were people who didnít maybe they left or tried fighting Nero. Either way itís possible but completely irrelevant to the plot.

Demanding EVERYTHING to be answered is illogical and makes for bad writing. The Force in Star Wars at this point is completely over answered and thereís really no mystery behind it. I donít want that happening everywhere.

People have laid blame for stupider reasons than this. Seriously, not everyone is fully capable of making rational choices, especially after their planet has blown up.

And I wasnít merely talking about $$$ popularity. The Transformers movies have been attacked and attacked despite making money. Usually when something both makes money and is reviewed EXTREMELY well you have something there. Transformers cannot say that. Star Trek remains the highest rated average of all the Trek films and the most open to casual watchers since Star Trek IV.





Quote:
Originally Posted by LotD
It's perfectly logical to want revenge. The problem is that the Romulans in question have suddenly found themselves in the past, which changes everything. The logical reaction is for them to rejoice at having the chance to stop the looming catastrophe and save everyone they thought they lost. I would expect them to forget all about Spock as they proceed to do everything they can to change history so the destruction of Romulus doesn't occur. The conflict should be that Spock appears and doesn't want history changed.

Moreover, why do they want revenge against Spock, the one person who tried to help them? Especially to the point of wanting to make Spock watch the destruction of Vulcan, and then proceed to go on a genocidal rampage against every other Federation planet. And for the kind of intense hatred required for that sort of thing to last 25 years of just sitting there.



How do you figure that? He destroyed an entire Federation fleet in a matter of minutes and was thoroughly stomping their newest and most advanced starship when it showed up late. Considering the original Enterprise supposedly had the firepower to destroy a planet by itself, should not Nero's have more than what was required?

He's even got a drill on his ship capable of drilling all the way to a planet's core. Who needs red matter at that point?

Further, if he goes to Romulus, he can not only stop the supernova but he can give them the future tech and then he has his own armada of super-ships.



How are they going to do anything but bow down before his superior might? He's got a ship capable of destroying entire fleets. If they refuse, he can simply slaughter the leadership and take over. It worked for Shinzon, and he wasn't even a Romulan.
Again you speak of this ďlogicĒ. This is YOUR logical reaction. If everyone was written as you then weíd have nothing but boring movies.
Nero and crew were devastated by the loss of their families and home worlds. The past doesnít hold their families so theyíd still be sad about that. Even if they waited for their families to be around again thatís a long time to wait and theyíd just be a double of someone. PLUS who says they didnít first save Romulus already? Maybe they fixed the star before picking up Spock .
What you would expect doesnít matter. You expect unreasonable things. They view Spock as the person who failed. The person who let the other Vulcans slow him down and make him fail. Rejoice? Their families still arenít around and theyíre in another universe so their families are still dead in their own universe.
You ignore the fragilities and imperfections of the mind.

Their want for revenge has been explained away a million times. Itís realistic. Maybe not the most rational action but still realistic. People are rarely rational in real life.

As for the firepowerÖ That could mean anything. The Enterprise could probably adjust itís torpedoes to be WMDs (the explosions are condensed significantly when theyíre used normally). They certainly couldnít destroy a whole world very quickly. They could probably make one mostly uninhabitable.

Who says he didnít stop the Supernova? Just because it wasnít address doesnít mean it didnít happen. He could have done it already or maybe he was planning to after he destroyed the Federation.

Plus him and the crew might feel disconnected from this universeís Romulus. Itís not really theirs. Itís an alternate one. Anything is possible.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
02-18-2011, 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
your issues. You never readdressed them or countered mine. How do you account for the critically great response by like 95% of the population? 95% of the population isn't stupid. How do you account for the very definition of a plot hole and the fact that this doesn't fit that definition? How do you account for the countless stupid comments made in that review you linked like the one that pretends that stress induced labor doesn't exist?

I've commented on your comments. You've done nothing like that. Even with my Scrubs wrong wrong wrong wrong link I've still been the productive one in the conversation with points and counter points. You've just shared points. Please address specifically what I have said.
You gave a list of why it wasn't a "plot hole", I countered that with my own points as to why it fits that definition. You ignored it in favor of Dr. Cox. At which point I realized you were not interested in an actual discussion and stopped bothering to discuss the issues seriously, especially when you responded to the other review by criticizing his grammar and then complaining it was stupid and a waste of your time. If you can't even be bothered to read it, then I cannot be bothered to address your argument in a serious manner.

And yes, I already did address your repeated appeals to popularity. Adding to what I already said about that, despite the popularity of the movie, Nero vanishing for 25 years and his motivations are frequently criticized by both people who liked the movie and people who didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan844
THE FIRST ONE WAS GOOD!

/endrant

With that out of the way, I agree that Transformers 2 was not all that good, and was a bit hard to follow and understand at times, (At least it wasn't as big of a plop as Pirates of the Carribean 2 and 3... and soon to be 4) but the action scenes were the good parts.

#1 had a lot of good parts, and did very well with reviewers.

#2, admittedly, was a bit poorly written, but not awfully so.


Also, in your post, I believe you used the abbreviation "STO9", for the movie.


WOW! Since when did this game get a movie?!? Much less 9 movies?!?
Actually, I really enjoyed the first Transformers. That doesn't mean the writing was good in any way shape or form. The difference is, I don't care if Transformers has stupid writing because the selling point of Transformers is to watch cars turn into robots and fight, not an exploration of the human condition.

Transformers 2 had that, but it also strayed too far into ridiculous for me to be pacified by the robot fighting. Transformers 2 is completely awfully written (and to some extent directed), even moreso than ST09. It takes every problem both Transformers and ST09 have and magnifies them by 10. I had fun with it, but I still walked out of the theater shaking my head.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
02-18-2011, 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
Some people just WANT to hate it. They NEED to hate it. So they create the dumbest crap to complain about that they could possibly imagine.
This is the flat-out truth. Some of these long time fans were just too upset with the idea of a reboot that they couldn't accept it. They had to find something wrong with it to justify the hatred and so even if it wasn't one thing it would be another.

I also think the argument against deleted scenes is weak, a lot of the time the directors don't get the final say. Maybe they really wanted those scenes in and someone else forced it out. It could have been some kind of forced compromise but I think watching the movie with the deleted scenes in place is closer to how it was originally envisioned so just saying "THEY DON'T COUNT BECAUSE THEY GOT CUT" is ridiculous. Are you going to reject the final cut of Blade Runner just because it wasn't shown in theatres? That leaves you with the massively inferior theatre cut, which was forced by the studios to include stupid narration and a number of other dumb changes. Everyone will be happier with the final cut. Same thing for this movie, and probably most movies, really.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
02-19-2011, 04:59 AM
Wow way too much personal attack!!

anyway the tread is about Plot hole that hasn't been or have been badly explain. not what movie was the best many thread about that.


What I'm getting from all previous post is that

NERO 25 years waiting has been clearly explain or badly explain. to me it's like they didn't really think of it they just wanted to make up time so Kirk could grow up. But i think they should come up with a much better explanation about Nero being in a Kling prison for 25 years (according to some comics or whatever) then suddenly he now a new storm coming up and just happen to have the strength to escape?! that's is so .....

as for the Nexus i just enjoy seeing Kirk and Picard but the hole nexus story is too as we say in French " tirť par les cheveux"



and why when they can't make a logical explanation they come up with time travel and so anomaly that create even more plot hole



PS: I'm enjoying argument between USS Parallax and LotD but please don't get personal keep it Trek
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
02-19-2011, 08:18 AM
@ USS Paralax:

First off: Nero had Borg tech. That was what the whole thing on "The Vault" explained.

Secong: This isn't a point but meerly a question: Wasn't Nero Reman?

Third: How log has it been since you played the... I forgot, were the origional Romulan missions Commander or Lt. Commander level? Anyway, those missions clearly explain that the Hobus event was SABOTAGE! Please check your facts before posting. UNLESS THE SABOTAGE WAS STOPPED, ROMULOUS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SAVED! Someone WANTED Romulous gone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
02-19-2011, 08:32 AM
ST09 had a ton of plot holes, some big and some very small that only a hardcore fan would even bother to pick up on but star trek has been doing plot holes for forty years. ive been re watching TNG recently and the problems im seeing with errors are all over the place.

XI just carried on a fine tradition.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
02-19-2011, 08:45 AM
Here's a plot hole from Abrams Trek:
How can Spock (Nimoy) watch, in real time, the destruction of Vulcan? If he's on a moon of Vulcan, wouldn't the moon get sucked into the black hole too? If he's on a planet light years away (which is more likely...wasn't the Enterprise at warp when Spock (Quinto) kicks Kirk off the ship), wouldn't he have to wait a couple years at least before seeing Vulcan destroyed?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
02-19-2011, 08:49 AM
my personal favourite plot hole from 09 was my did he bother drilling into the planets core before launching the red matter?

wouldn't igniting it in the atmosphere or at the very least ground level of vulcan have done the job just as well?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
02-19-2011, 10:11 AM
There's nothing more fun than a pack of Trekkies arguing about plot consistency in Star Trek, other than Star Wars fans arguing about... Star Wars plot holes.
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