Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
02-19-2011, 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
So in TOS they were at about the same technological level. ENT revealed that they had access to a constitution-class ship like 100 years prior. Basically even with that boost they were still barely able to keep even with the Federation in the normal universe.

Then the Terran Empire falls. We see that the Klingons are about at the same technological place as the normal universe. However, despite being previously basically static in their technological advancements they made a huge leap to still be even in technology with the current Federation. They regrew their power and advanced.


My problem is... how the heck did they manage that? The Terran Empire hasn't been too good with technology in the past. What logic has given them access to basically exactly the same ship classes? Have they had operatives on our side for decades copying our tech? That's the only thing I can think of that would make sense.


I don't see the technologically challenged Terran Empire who's been broken and re-pieced together still being at an even level as the normal Federation. They're pumping out the same classes. Basically the same tech. It's a bit too much suspension of disbelief for me unless they've just been stealing the main universe's technology all this time.

I would prolly have to agree with the highlighted section there, that they have in fact been here longer then what we know, and I say that because there have only been a few recorded incidents with that alternate universe. The 2 episodes of TOS, the Episode of TNG, the few episodes of DS9, one of Voyager, and then the Enterprise 2 parter. Now given thats a big handfull, given that just about everything even as far back as enterprise was recorded in some way shape or form youd expect there to be more right?

Just my two cents
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
02-19-2011, 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade View Post
I have a few problems related to the Terran Federation/Empire as it is in STO. First is the technology issue that you mention, although with a different spin. My problem is, how could the Terrans have assembled a strong enough fleet to challenge the Klingon/Cardassian alliance in the three or four decades since winning their freedom? Ok, so they're stealing tech from the prime universe, cheap writing but they've done it before so fine, whatever. But that still doesn't explain how they got the resources to put together a fleet that size, especially since they were starting from scratch after being free of the Alliance. The other thing is, wouldn't the Terrans be more concerned with a strong defensive force *before* expanding into conquest? They were on the raggedy edge when they won their freedom, the Alliance could've steamrolled them easily, so wouldn't the Terrans be worrying about defending their piddly little planets more than conquering the Alliance?

Second, they're evil conquerors again? They're different from the prime universe, sure. They probably don't have a Prime Directive or anything to keep them from taking over primitive planets. Fine. And they're probably p*ssed at the Alliance and have some desire for revenge. Understandable. But come on, going from Smiley's rebellion and all of the anti-oppression stuff to the big bad conquerors just makes no sense. And speaking of Smiley, what the hell is up with his son? Did his schoolmates drag the kid through mud and rocks by his ********s? Smiley was a nice guy who didn't look kindly upon abuse, so what the hell happened turn his son into such a sadistic b*stard?


Nope, because the fans wanted the Mirror Universe involved in STO somehow, regardless of whether it made sense.
When the Terran Empire initially fell who's to say that some of the Empire didn't go into hiding until they could rebuild their forces?? Would certainly explain some of the Terran's Mirandas and Centaurs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
02-19-2011, 06:11 PM
As someone pointed out, the Terran's in STO refer to themselves as the Terran Federation, not Empire. This and the state of Smiley's mirror universe from DS9 always led me to believe that the Terran Federation crossing into our reality do not come from the same reality that Sisko visted. Other then Smiley O'brien there is very little evidence that the Terran Federation comes from that reality, and as pointed out in this thread, there is lots of evidence they do not.

And for those who go "Multiple mirror universes? impossible!" Not only is multiple realities the whole idea behind the mirror universe episodes, but there was an episode of TNG where thousands of Galaxy Class Enterprise D's all visted the same reality for a brieft time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralle...xt_Generation)

For that matter, there's very little evidence that Smiley seen in DS9 comes from the same mirror universe seen in Enterprise or TOS. Just a very similar one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
02-19-2011, 06:27 PM
I'd just like to see more of the Mirror Universe counterparts. It's always fun. And I think a different MU makes sense, afterall, it gives STO more leeway in writing to include them in a Featured Series.

My only concern is why the women are dressed the same as the men. It's been shown multiple times that they always dressed different. (Okay, you caught me, it's not a serious concern at all.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
02-19-2011, 06:50 PM
The entire Terran empire thing (other than the missions) is stupid.
Another one of the thing I have been complaining about since beta.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
02-19-2011, 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staran View Post
The entire Terran empire thing (other than the missions) is stupid.
Another one of the thing I have been complaining about since beta.
I see... you dont like terrans :O ... well... to the agony booth you go
Lt. Commander
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# 27
02-19-2011, 07:10 PM
I am in your universe... stealing your tech!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
02-19-2011, 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
So in TOS they were at about the same technological level. ENT revealed that they had access to a constitution-class ship like 100 years prior. Basically even with that boost they were still barely able to keep even with the Federation in the normal universe.

Then the Terran Empire falls. We see that the Klingons are about at the same technological place as the normal universe. However, despite being previously basically static in their technological advancements they made a huge leap to still be even in technology with the current Federation. They regrew their power and advanced.


My problem is... how the heck did they manage that? The Terran Empire hasn't been too good with technology in the past. What logic has given them access to basically exactly the same ship classes? Have they had operatives on our side for decades copying our tech? That's the only thing I can think of that would make sense.


I don't see the technologically challenged Terran Empire who's been broken and re-pieced together still being at an even level as the normal Federation. They're pumping out the same classes. Basically the same tech. It's a bit too much suspension of disbelief for me unless they've just been stealing the main universe's technology all this time.
Hey, someone read the annotation I made to STO's TVTropes page! Or you figured it out on your own! Either way, yay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSterling
When the Terran Empire initially fell who's to say that some of the Empire didn't go into hiding until they could rebuild their forces?? Would certainly explain some of the Terran's Mirandas and Centaurs.
That's the explanation I'm pulling for. I assumed that the Terran Federation is actually a successor state to the Terran Empire, formed in the early 24th century a good distance away from the core worlds by Terran ships fleeing the Alliance. Getting driven out of their homes and forced into exile in the backwoods of the galaxy has made them into massive ****** again, and now they've finally got enough power to start whittling away at the aging, increasingly shaky Alliance, with the support of some conquered planets who still remember the Terran Empire fondly (which might not be a stretch, given how the contemporary predations of the Alliance would've overshadowed its long-passed crimes.)

I still have no explanation for why they're using T5 ships, however. My only guess is to use the Shatnerverse's explanation of long-running intel programs in our universe and big honkin' industrial replicators. I also assume that the Terran versions of the ships are much crappier than the Federation ones.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
02-19-2011, 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade View Post
I have a few problems related to the Terran Federation/Empire as it is in STO. First is the technology issue that you mention, although with a different spin. My problem is, how could the Terrans have assembled a strong enough fleet to challenge the Klingon/Cardassian alliance in the three or four decades since winning their freedom? Ok, so they're stealing tech from the prime universe, cheap writing but they've done it before so fine, whatever. But that still doesn't explain how they got the resources to put together a fleet that size, especially since they were starting from scratch after being free of the Alliance. The other thing is, wouldn't the Terrans be more concerned with a strong defensive force *before* expanding into conquest? They were on the raggedy edge when they won their freedom, the Alliance could've steamrolled them easily, so wouldn't the Terrans be worrying about defending their piddly little planets more than conquering the Alliance?

Second, they're evil conquerors again? They're different from the prime universe, sure. They probably don't have a Prime Directive or anything to keep them from taking over primitive planets. Fine. And they're probably p*ssed at the Alliance and have some desire for revenge. Understandable. But come on, going from Smiley's rebellion and all of the anti-oppression stuff to the big bad conquerors just makes no sense. And speaking of Smiley, what the hell is up with his son? Did his schoolmates drag the kid through mud and rocks by his ********s? Smiley was a nice guy who didn't look kindly upon abuse, so what the hell happened turn his son into such a sadistic b*stard?


Nope, because the fans wanted the Mirror Universe involved in STO somehow, regardless of whether it made sense.
As to the first, the softcanon stories suggest that the Terrans being conquered by the Klingon/Cardassian alliance is all part of Mirror Spock's plan to reform the former Terran Empire, by actually letting it fall so that the citizenry would support freedom and liberty, rather than forcing democracy through government edict, as they would fight for their own freedom.

As part of that plan, he made use of the fact that no-one in that universe knows that vulcans are touch-telepaths, causing the alliance to ship the vulcans en masse all over their empires as 'docile' slaves, who are actually acting as million strong sleeper cells. He also had a number of Genesis-type safe houses set up.

So you could say the alliance was predestined to fall, and maybe the transition smoother than how it is with most revolutions in history. Maybe.

But that flies in the face of your 2nd point. You're right, why conquerers again? I always believed that the people in the mirror universe do not naturally tend to be 'evil', its the differences in history that caused the differences. I think it was suggested that in the mirror universe, Cochran told the vulcans and other humans about the Borg in First Contact, setting the stage for a more militaristic and xenophobic outlook. STO makes it seem like Terrans in the mirror universe are born evil or something.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
02-19-2011, 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainSterling
When the Terran Empire initially fell who's to say that some of the Empire didn't go into hiding until they could rebuild their forces?? Would certainly explain some of the Terran's Mirandas and Centaurs.
I would explain the existence of Terran Mirandas and Centaurs as them simply stealing the plans for those ships from the prime universe like they did with the Defiant. As for a Terran Empire remnant, IMO that's the sort of thing that someone would've mentioned in the DS9 MU episodes if the writers had intended that to be the case. I could maybe believe that some Imperial Starfleet ships escaped and fled to a far-flung part of the galaxy to rebuild and come back for revenge far in the future, but there's currently no indication of that. Instead, we just get a bunch of warmongers on the short road to getting their a**es conquered again because of the leadership of the d*uchebag son of a former Terran leader who was a pretty good guy (if you look past the constant kidnapping).
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