Lt. Commander
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# 81
03-02-2011, 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
It's the safest assumption. There's no logical reason why an intelligent species would ignore 90%+ of the globe. You cannot make the safest assumptions based on what ifs but only what you know. Scientifically speaking it's considerably less likely that a species would ignore a huge portion of the globe or use mud huts when they're capable of so much more.
Funny, I was under the impression that's exactly what a lot of people on the American continent did before Columbus turned up.
Lt. Commander
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# 82
03-02-2011, 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
Funny, I was under the impression that's exactly what a lot of people on the American continent did before Columbus turned up.
To be fair, the Voth got into space before anyone else, and the Native Americans couldn't come up with the wheel.
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# 83
03-02-2011, 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Whatever is stated in the shows is canon, and STO cant just disregard that. Especially because CBS is involved with this game.
little late to the topic, but this completely.

Can't just throw canon to the wayside despite how awful the story may be. (I have no opinion of the Voth storyline)
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# 84
03-02-2011, 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok42 View Post
little late to the topic, but this completely.

Can't just throw canon to the wayside despite how awful the story may be. (I have no opinion of the Voth storyline)
Not exactly. After all, we never actually saw the proto-Voth living on an island continent on Earth 50 mya. It's all just speculation by the characters. It could always be revealed later that they didn't have all the data, and their initial theories were just conjectures. The alternate solution of Preserver transplant would work without breaking the original story and make more sense from a paleontological standpoint. Seems win-win to me.
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# 85
03-02-2011, 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by malashenko89 View Post
Not exactly. After all, we never actually saw the proto-Voth living on an island continent on Earth 50 mya. It's all just speculation by the characters. It could always be revealed later that they didn't have all the data, and their initial theories were just conjectures. The alternate solution of Preserver transplant would work without breaking the original story and make more sense from a paleontological standpoint. Seems win-win to me.
later hasnt come yet. so until then we can only go with what we currently have. regardless of how much "speculation" it was, they beat a dead horse that episode, to drill it into the viewers heads that the Voth were from Earth and had left it at some point. they didnt say when or necessarily how. but trying to fill in the holes with opinions is pointless. Star Trek canon states they came from Earth, they didnt bother to explain how or why they left, only that they did. enough of the bickering over who is more logical and whos opinion overrules all others.
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# 86
03-02-2011, 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by malashenko89 View Post
Not exactly. After all, we never actually saw the proto-Voth living on an island continent on Earth 50 mya. It's all just speculation by the characters. It could always be revealed later that they didn't have all the data, and their initial theories were just conjectures. The alternate solution of Preserver transplant would work without breaking the original story and make more sense from a paleontological standpoint. Seems win-win to me.
I've read a lot of the arguments, and this really seems the most sensible, to me. All in all, I have to say that I think the writers of this episode didn't do a very good job of doing their homework and making it feasible. Not like that hasn't happened before in a Trek episode. (Threshold, anyone?)

We do indeed have fossil evidence from the dinosaurs, and I agree that it seems very unlikely that we wouldn't find some trace of the Voth on Earth, if they did indeed grow into an advanced civilization here. The arguments that the Voth wouldn't have to become widespread, that attribute that to humanity's 'greedy' or 'conquistador' tendencies don't hold water, IMO. If they remained primitive, yes, they may have remained relatively isolated. But any 'advanced' civilization will need to expand due to the effects of 'advancement.'

When industrial-level production is achieved, resources are used and depleted much faster than in a primitive setting. Advances in technology usually require the rise of specialization, which means a significant portion of the population must turn to more 'abstract' work like academics, engineering and thus turn away from the simple tasks of personal survival. This is enabled by advances in farming and food production, allowing fewer farmers to produce greater amounts of food to feed those who are no longer providing their own share of the food themselves. Mass production and the organization of trade and distribution of goods is required. This all takes more space and requires expansion.

Medical advances lead to longer lifespans than the race would have under primitive conditions. Mortality rates decline, birth/survival rates go up. Population rises. This too requires expansion. The advent of technology also leads a race to superiority over their natural environment. Tools enable them to compete more effectively with more primitive predators (IE, your T-Rex you say kept the race from expanding). Technology also enables the race to shelter and isolate themselves more effectively from the climate and exist in places they previously could not have survived in primitive times.

In effect, the advancement of technology enables expansion, and it causes many of the factors which drive the advancing race to expand. If the Voth were driven to create and advance technology, it pretty well follows that they were driven to expand their territory at the same time.

All in all, for my own wishes, I'd hope that Cryptic simply stays far away from the Voth and doesn't bring them into the story of STO. I'd like to see the Voth 'canon' brought in-game only slightly more than I'd like to see the Threshold canon brought in-game. (Thankfully, that one's contradicted by other Trek canon itself, and we have things like warp 14 engines rather than warp 10 'infinite velocity.')
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# 87
03-02-2011, 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Tar
Funny, I was under the impression that's exactly what a lot of people on the American continent did before Columbus turned up.
That's not at all how it was. The different American Indian tribes expanded and expanded. They came from expansion from Asia. It's in fact exactly the opposite of what you suggest... Heck, they expanded over much of the two continents and only didn't go back to Asia because the path was gone and they were not capable.
Lt. Commander
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# 88
03-02-2011, 08:57 PM
Can I say, the idea of the Voth being from earth before man, is very much like the sillurians from doctor who.
Lt. Commander
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# 89
03-02-2011, 09:33 PM
Ok, so seriously? I know that half of you are moonlighting your PhD in paleontology and stuff, but we're talking about a science fiction television show. The canon was established, it's how it is. They said it a bunch of times in the show.

And if it bothers you so much that you don't want the Voth even in the game, then just consider it an alternate universe to our own, where this same thing could have happened easily. Like I said before, since the Eugenics didn't happen, it's pretty pointless to cherry-pick which plots you think fit and which you don't. Not like 90% of the show is within the realm of possibility anyway. Suck it up.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 90
03-02-2011, 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Parallax
I hate the idea that a species of intellect evolved on Earth before the humans. Ridiculous. There would be proof.
Apologies if this has already been mentioned but this isn't the first time that Scifi has told us of a species evolving on Earth before Humankind, you've got a few examples of that in other Scifi shows as well, it's not so ridiculous, it makes for good storytelling
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