Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 271
03-09-2011, 04:25 PM
While I really agree there are serious issues with pet spam, especially in both performance and targeting issues, I don't understand the backlash against the cloaking tractor mines. There's three good reasons for this.

1. The tractor mines only spawn 4 mines, less than most! That means less spam.

2. The tractor mines have a 60s cooldown, way less than other spammy mines. That means less spam.

3. The tractor mines cloak! This means no targeting spam at all!


As for arguments against the tractor mines doing stuff, well those fall flat honestly. Its not outside the realm of physics at all, and especially so when dealing with fictional physics and a species that uses quantum singularities to power their ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 272
03-09-2011, 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
While I really agree there are serious issues with pet spam, especially in both performance and targeting issues, I don't understand the backlash against the cloaking tractor mines. There's three good reasons for this.

1. The tractor mines only spawn 4 mines, less than most! That means less spam.

2. The tractor mines have a 60s cooldown, way less than other spammy mines. That means less spam.

3. The tractor mines cloak! This means no targeting spam at all!


As for arguments against the tractor mines doing stuff, well those fall flat honestly. Its not outside the realm of physics at all, and especially so when dealing with fictional physics and a species that uses quantum singularities to power their ships.
You can't honestly tell me that a tractor beam should be able to stop something going 1/4th the speed of light cold, can you? And you can't honestly say that something so unmassive should be able to stop a very massive object. You can't sit there with a straight face and tell me that, even ruling out the first two, you can pack enough power in a tiny little space to be able to pull that all off and have enough power left over to be able to cloak!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 273
03-09-2011, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
You can't honestly tell me that a tractor beam should be able to stop something going 1/4th the speed of light cold, can you? And you can't honestly say that something so unmassive should be able to stop a very massive object. You can't sit there with a straight face and tell me that, even ruling out the first two, you can pack enough power in a tiny little space to be able to pull that all off and have enough power left over to be able to cloak!

Size does not equal mass. And mass in Star Trek is nearly irrelevant as well, what with inertial dampening and the like. We don't know what a tractor beam mine is even doing to create the effect it does, either, so to say an unknown effect is outside the realm of possibility is nonsense because we don't even know what it is actually doing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 274
03-09-2011, 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
Size does not equal mass. And mass in Star Trek is nearly irrelevant as well, what with inertial dampening and the like. We don't know what a tractor beam mine is even doing to create the effect it does, either, so to say an unknown effect is outside the realm of possibility is nonsense because we don't even know what it is actually doing.
The other stuff in Trek is actually possible in theoretical physics. The math is there, but the capability to prove or disprove it is not available at this point in time. That said, did you know there was a news article regarding a tractor beam being theoretically sound just recently?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 275
03-09-2011, 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
Well, to get even more reality based with that argument, Tractor Mines should not exist at all because they violate multpile laws of physics. Star Trek did all that neat stuff, but it bent, not broke, said laws of physics.

A great example is when the Defiant tractored the Runabout before it got into the Bajoran sun when Faux Bashir was flying it. The laws of inertia prevented the runabout being halted altogether, but the Defiant was more massive, and thus could disrupt the Runabout's flight path. Low mass objects should not be able to affect inertia on high mass objects, and also mines do not have a sufficient power source for maintaining a tractor for as long as the mines in game do, nor should the tractor be nearly as powerful based on said small power supply.

If something supposedly neat were to be introduced to the game, it really does need to make sense from a physics perspective.
Well, actually, a small object CAN affect the inertia of a larger object, especially in the vacuum of space, where friction is less of an issue.

Your example isn't really all that good because we have no information about how a tractor beam works. Is it magnetic? Gravitic?

Star Trek has always made the effort to stay within the bounds of theoretical physics, or at least common sense. The mines are small and not moving. They cannot have the power or inertia of a starship, so they should only SLOW a ship (ie SNARE, not ROOT), and should run out of power, lasting AT MOST as long as a Starship's Tractor Beam.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 276
03-09-2011, 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Well, actually, a small object CAN affect the inertia of a larger object, especially in the vacuum of space, where friction is less of an issue.

Your example isn't really all that good because we have no information about how a tractor beam works. Is it magnetic? Gravitic?

Star Trek has always made the effort to stay within the bounds of theoretical physics, or at least common sense. The mines are small and not moving. They cannot have the power or inertia of a starship, so they should only SLOW a ship (ie SNARE, not ROOT), and should run out of power, lasting AT MOST as long as a Starship's Tractor Beam.
Good point :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 277
03-10-2011, 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walshicus
Here's how to fix it.

We have two firing modes for ship weapons as of now, manual and autofire. Add a third mode - "point defence" - which would independently fire on mine, heavy torpedo and fighter class ships with a reduced efficiency, and we have an effective countermeasure to pet spam.
A most interesting and simple idea , surprised it hasn't been considered yet.Point defence firing mode with possibly some limitations.

For examble we wouldn't be able to "point defence" everything on an equal level but rather queue priorities to our point defence weapons , with 1 been the most often targetable item (mines and then fighters and then bops and so on).Further limitations could be added , as limited range and firepower ( not been able to point defence a tricobalt torpedo for examble with just 1 shot ).Also the effectiveness of point defence could be dependable on a seperate subsystem maybe or just the weapon power levels , not sure whats the optimal solution but definately an idea with great potential.

The applications of "point defence" are just too good imho to be ignored , it could actually be a seperate skill tree in the future to make skill options more diverse.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 278
03-10-2011, 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stOfficer
A most interesting and simple idea , surprised it hasn't been considered yet.Point defence firing mode with possibly some limitations.

For examble we wouldn't be able to "point defence" everything on an equal level but rather queue priorities to our point defence weapons , with 1 been the most often targetable item (mines and then fighters and then bops and so on).Further limitations could be added , as limited range and firepower ( not been able to point defence a tricobalt torpedo for examble with just 1 shot ).Also the effectiveness of point defence could be dependable on a seperate subsystem maybe or just the weapon power levels , not sure whats the optimal solution but definately an idea with great potential.

The applications of "point defence" are just too good imho to be ignored , it could actually be a seperate skill tree in the future to make skill options more diverse.
When all your time is spent doing point defense, it's becomes a severley boring chore. That's what AoE and CC abilities have become, and it still wasn't enough to counter the sheer totality of the NPC elements when 5 people were running spam boats.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 279
03-10-2011, 11:45 AM
I saw the course that Cryptic has planned several pages back and I think that is a bad idea... Tractor beam mines will be worthless. Here is the fix: 1 mine standard, 2 mines with dispersal pattern, they do not self destruct, add a few hull points to them. If you implement the fix you mentioned than they will be worthless. If you make them less spammy, more bulky, they will have a tactical use. This is not gonna go welll!

I know that I have been vocal about this spam fest, but I think whoever came up with the grav well, scramble, chroniton mine fields were remarkably clever about their tactics. My first experience came via Vetch of O.O.V. I think, perhaps it was S.O.B. Anyway Kudos to the thinking, bad form to the coninueing exploitation but who can blame you.

Cloaking mines should not esplode..... Cryptic I am scared about your solutions... Can someone from cryptic call me and soothe my soul.

And CRYPTIC! Turn off auto fire on mines.

In closing I would like to remind you all that if you mine laying powers are gre................
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 280
03-10-2011, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
When all your time is spent doing point defense, it's becomes a severley boring chore. That's what AoE and CC abilities have become, and it still wasn't enough to counter the sheer totality of the NPC elements when 5 people were running spam boats.
I didn't mean to leave spamming as it is , definately needs adjustment.Nor to introduce point defence weapons for countering the current spamming potential in this game.Just an intresting idea to consider\implement , after they fix PvP...A long time that is if things continue this way.
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