Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-08-2011, 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I won't argue that we need variety. But the thing about RSF, Nadion Inversion, APA, or FOMM is that these abilities don't change a fight in an instant. For example, you going against a damaged oppoent who has Shield 3 up with Hazzard Emitters, one SNB and that person is very likely dead in the next couple of seconds.

Thats an too powerful an ability.
APA doesn't swing a fight? You'll never see a sci ship have the damage total of a Tac in an Escort. Never. And do you know why? The Tac can not only get his Guns to bear more often, they do far more damage.


If you don't think FOMM can't instantly swing a fight you've not fought against any good tac captains. Or you've willingly blocked it out.

You throw that sucker on someone that's already either ran out of buffs or had them stripped away, and they're done for if there's a naked hull exposed.

Too powerful? Really. Why? Because it kills you? My Space Bar can do that. Does that mean Space Bar needs Nerfed too? I hate to tell you but most sci roll Science Vessels. The reason for this, is Sci are the best in Sci Ships. (Nebula, or possibly Dkyr aside... those scream Eng ships) Sci are made naturally for Control, and Debuffs. Nothing does it like a Sci Ship can. It's best to play up your strengths and secondarily minimize your weaknesses. Sci can't pump dps. Putting them in an Escort unless it's a Debuff (read Target Sub) Escort really isn't playing to the strengths of the captain.

In my Recon, I can pump more damage than most Escorts at the end of a match, through proper use of High Yields, Beam Overload2/Target 2 (depending on what we need more) Does that mean I need nerfed because I can pump too much damage? No.

Also your restriction makes no sense for the klink side. Unless you say "Sci can fly bops too". And then you have defeated your own argument. So are you saying Sci should only fly the Varvanus klink side? No Karfis, No Carriers, but just the Varv?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-08-2011, 06:30 PM
It makes a lot more sense when you don't think about it. ^^
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 23
03-08-2011, 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I won't argue that we need variety. But the thing about RSF, Nadion Inversion, APA, or FOMM is that these abilities don't change a fight in an instant. For example, you going against a damaged oppoent who has Shield 3 up with Hazzard Emitters, one SNB and that person is very likely dead in the next couple of seconds.

Thats an too powerful an ability.
If you don't SNB them, are they ever going to die? You also vastly underestimate RSF and APA. RSF won't get put on a cooldown when using other shield resist powers, so you know, when someone comes along and SNBs those standard powers, the engineer can still put RSF up. APA is bar none the most powerful damage buff in the game and it is what gives tacs their incredible damage potential, especially when combined with FOMM.

Quote:
Another ridiculous suggestion? Then by all means come up with an alternative than "please don't hurt my science".

Nobody is forcing Science Captains to put put points into Science Abilities no more than Engineers having to for Engineering abilities. And Aux is only important if you are in a Science Ship, not an Escort or BoP
No alternative is necessary. Aux is already punishing a sci captain for running in an escort or BOP because their sensor scan and dampening field are less powerful. Go and compare a sensor scan and dampening field in a science ship at 125 aux to an escort at 45 aux. Tell me its not important. It is something an escort and BOP can't afford to run a lot of power to, but its not unimportant. But because an escort can't run aux power, the sci captain is penalized more than any other. This is based on absolute raw numbers.

Suggesting that science captains don't put skill points into their captain skills is absurd. The problem is that sci captains get much less for the investment than engineers and tacticals do, and the skills seem to be scaled with the expectation of running a deflector and sci consoles to support those skills. And THAT issue is something I've been wanting to see changed for nearly a year now.


Quote:
Doesn't mean people automatically have a new buff waiting in the winds. And if you are in an attacking BoP and just debuffed with SNB, they would likely be dead before they got a chance to pop a heal or another buff.
Why does it matter if they have a buff in the wings or not? What you're saying there is that SNB should never be effective at all. Its also very untrue that SNB is a death sentence, BOP, raptor, defiant, or otherwise, especially if the target is an engineer that can very easily have RSF or miracle worker in reserve even if their other buffs are on cooldown.
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# 24
03-08-2011, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
APA doesn't swing a fight? You'll never see a sci ship have the damage total of a Tac in an Escort. Never. And do you know why? The Tac can not only get his Guns to bear more often, they do far more damage.
No I don't think APA or FOMM isn't as significant as SNB. And I'll leave it at that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
If you don't SNB them, are they ever going to die? You also vastly underestimate RSF and APA. RSF won't get put on a cooldown when using other shield resist powers, so you know, when someone comes along and SNBs those standard powers, the engineer can still put RSF up. APA is bar none the most powerful damage buff in the game and it is what gives tacs their incredible damage potential, especially when combined with FOMM.
Its funny, Engineers in Escorts and Tacticals in Escorts dont worry much about blasting through an opponents defense, but the good ol Sci just nullfies that in a blink of an eye.

Quote:
No alternative is necessary. Aux is already punishing a sci captain for running in an escort or BOP because their sensor scan and dampening field are less powerful. Go and compare a sensor scan and dampening field in a science ship at 125 aux to an escort at 45 aux. Tell me its not important. It is something an escort and BOP can't afford to run a lot of power to, but its not unimportant. But because an escort can't run aux power, the sci captain is penalized more than any other. This is based on absolute raw numbers.

Suggesting that science captains don't put skill points into their captain skills is absurd. The problem is that sci captains get much less for the investment than engineers and tacticals do, and the skills seem to be scaled with the expectation of running a deflector and sci consoles to support those skills. And THAT issue is something I've been wanting to see changed for nearly a year now.
Aux is punishing a Sci Capatin in an Escort or BoP? Eh, no it doesn't. That's just an excuse.

I fly just fine with minimal Aux with my Sci BoP all the time. The only time I power up Aux is if I want VM to make a little more impact or I want my teammate to get a really nice heal with HE or TSS, which isn't no different than anyone else in the game.

And I'm not going to bother with that last point, its just more excuses to jusify. Even if SNB goes tomarrow, life will go on. The only difference is that Scis in Escort would have to work just as hard as Engineers and Tacticals in dropping their opponent.
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# 25
03-08-2011, 06:58 PM
Sub Nuc only seems to disproportionately powerful because it is quite likely the only thing that can break a strong ENG or SCI healer. Resists are the problem and the dependence upon SNB is just a symptom.

Alternatively, we can just take away SNB, RSF, and APA! Problem solved until a certain someone gets popped and then it'll be on to the next big whine.

o_O)b
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# 26
03-08-2011, 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
Alternatively, we can just take away SNB, RSF, and APA! Problem solved until a certain someone gets popped and then it'll be on to the next big whine.

o_O)b
If you take away my ramming speed, I'll ram y-...

wait

/scratches head
Lt. Commander
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# 27
03-08-2011, 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
Sub Nuc only seems to disproportionately powerful because it is quite likely the only thing that can break a strong ENG or SCI healer. Resists are the problem and the dependence upon SNB is just a symptom.

Alternatively, we can just take away SNB, RSF, and APA! Problem solved until a certain someone gets popped and then it'll be on to the next big whine.

o_O)b
SNB is also disproportionally powerful as being one of the leading way of making a Tac captain scream bloody murder because you've blown away his entire stack of alpha strike attack buffs, including GDF, before they even get off a single shot.

Ho ho ho.... oh man I love doing that on my Intrepid.
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# 28
03-08-2011, 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
No I don't think APA or FOMM isn't as significant as SNB. And I'll leave it at that.
Its funny, Engineers in Escorts and Tacticals in Escorts dont worry much about blasting through an opponents defense, but the good ol Sci just nullfies that in a blink of an eye.
Aux is punishing a Sci Capatin in an Escort or BoP? Eh, no it doesn't. That's just an excuse.

I fly just fine with minimal Aux with my Sci BoP all the time. The only time I power up Aux is if I want VM to make a little more impact or I want my teammate to get a really nice heal with HE or TSS, which isn't no different than anyone else in the game.

And I'm not going to bother with that last point, its just more excuses to jusify. Even if SNB goes tomarrow, life will go on. The only difference is that Scis in Escort would have to work just as hard as Engineers and Tacticals in dropping their opponent.
Then you really need to learn how to play the game. Because APA, is by far superior to every damage buff in the game short of Go Down Fighting when you're at 20 percent or less hull. APA is the difference between taking down a shield that's got Resists up or them staying up and laughing off the damage. Eng's can't even come close to matching the damage of a properly set up Tac. And neither can Sci.

Infact most of the time I have very little trouble taking down shields with my Tac. I can do it often just as quickly if not more so in alot of situations than a Sci in an Escort will.

A sci yes, can nullify resistances.... But what idiot in their right mind front loads every single Resist they have straight away? Particularly Engs and Sci should ALWAYS have at least one to two other big resistances held in Reserve. And if they don't in the case of the Eng, he's got Miracle Worker. After that he's probably also got Sci Team to clear the debuff.

Yeah, and your Sensor scan is no where near as potent as mine is in my Recon even in it's native 79 Aux. And I'm pretty sure because of that I can either match or exceed your Damage Capabilities. Actually I -know- I can match some pretty hard dps dealers because of that. I also know my Damp field is Much stronger than yours is.

Az, I rolled an Escort with my Sci for a while and guess what I'm flying now? My Recon. I had an Advanced that made people want to pull out their hair, scream and whine about how broken Sci was in escorts when coupled with Target Systems. (because I'd make them eat their ST CD to fix their subsystems) And you know what? It frankly just didn't match the sheer Control, and debuff power of my Recon. I actually Gained DPS, because my Target abilities don't eat all of my tac slots. And my weapon power is only 4 points less than it was in the Advanced.

I like to Murder People. And I Murder best with my Sci, in the Recon. Not the Escort. Infact most sci in Escorts, really don't measure up to the Murdering power of the best sci in sci ships. Escorts just don't pack the Control necessary to do adequate Group Murder.

No, the difference is you'd make Science unviable for Escort Duty. I can blow away their shields just fine with my Tac. Do you know the real reason SNB is fun, in an Escort? Because you are then fast enough to actually debuff Escorts, preemptively instead of waiting for them to get into your arc. You can turn that Mother into them and Nuc Their ***.

Also Engs have to work the hardest to kill someone in an Escort.... I suppose that means that Engs need buffs? No. It's just not their strong suit.

Also if you are using VM you are by definition Doing It Wrong.
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# 29
03-08-2011, 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
Then you really need to learn how to play the game. Because APA, is by far superior to every damage buff in the game short of Go Down Fighting when you're at 20 percent or less hull. APA is the difference between taking down a shield that's got Resists up or them staying up and laughing off the damage. Eng's can't even come close to matching the damage of a properly set up Tac. And neither can Sci.
Oh well, good for those Tacticals who manage to use APA with GDF. But this thread is about SNB, not every single buff's relevance to the game.

Quote:
A sci yes, can nullify resistances.... But what idiot in their right mind front loads every single Resist they have straight away? Particularly Engs and Sci should ALWAYS have at least one to two other big resistances held in Reserve. And if they don't in the case of the Eng, he's got Miracle Worker. After that he's probably also got Sci Team to clear the debuff.
Not everyone is created equal. And there is always the possibility a person was hit by an SNB prior and is now on his reserves to stay alive.

Quote:
Yeah, and your Sensor scan is no where near as potent as mine is in my Recon even in it's native 79 Aux. And I'm pretty sure because of that I can either match or exceed your Damage Capabilities. Actually I -know- I can match some pretty hard dps dealers because of that. I also know my Damp field is Much stronger than yours is.
If you are better than me, then you are better than me.

Quote:
Az, I rolled an Escort with my Sci for a while and guess what I'm flying now? My Recon. I had an Advanced that made people want to pull out their hair, scream and whine about how broken Sci was in escorts when coupled with Target Systems. (because I'd make them eat their ST CD to fix their subsystems) And you know what? It frankly just didn't match the sheer Control, and debuff power of my Recon. I actually Gained DPS, because my Target abilities don't eat all of my tac slots. And my weapon power is only 4 points less than it was in the Advanced.

I like to Murder People. And I Murder best with my Sci, in the Recon. Not the Escort. Infact most sci in Escorts, really don't measure up to the Murdering power of the best sci in sci ships. Escorts just don't pack the Control necessary to do adequate Group Murder.
Again good for you, you do what you want to do. And I'll do what I want to do.

Quote:
No, the difference is you'd make Science unviable for Escort Duty. I can blow away their shields just fine with my Tac.
If you are dependant on SNB as an Escort Captain then there is something wrong with you.


Quote:
Also Engs have to work the hardest to kill someone in an Escort.... I suppose that means that Engs need buffs? No. It's just not their strong suit.
Engineers have the hardest to kill in anything.

Quote:
Also if you are using VM you are by definition Doing It Wrong.
Works pretty well on Escort Captains when I'm fighting him in my BoP. So I think its working as intended.
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# 30
03-08-2011, 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Oh well, good for those Tacticals who manage to use APA with GDF. But this thread is about SNB, not every single buff's relevance to the game.

Not everyone is created equal. And there is always the possibility a person was hit by an SNB prior and is now on his reserves to stay alive.

If you are better than me, then you are better than me.

Again good for you, you do what you want to do. And I'll do what I want to do.

If you are dependant on SNB as an Escort Captain then there is something wrong with you.

Engineers have the hardest to kill in anything.

Works pretty well on one particular Escort Captain when I'm fighting him in my BoP. So I think its working as intended.
But the other buffs ARE relevant to the discussion. Because SNB doesn't exist in a vacuum. I think that would be pretty obvious to anyone that belongs in a Team.

No not everyone is. But that doesn't mean SNB is brokenly powerful in an Escort. It just means some people need to learn how to play better, or stop complaining everytime they die to someone elses Space Bar.

Sci in an Escort's SNB is kind of part and pacel to their build. Just like APA is for a Tac in an Anything. relying upon it to function is no different than using APA, or Nadion Inversion.

Yes, and the point of Engies is what? Not to deal damage but what? Oh right Absorb Damage.

Yeah, it's still crap 9/10 times.
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