Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
03-12-2011, 07:40 PM
MVAM gives this game exactly what it needed - more pet spam.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
03-12-2011, 07:47 PM
I think that the MVAM should be left the way it is. In the specs of the ship from the show it didn't split its exsisting shield and hull strength into thirds, making each part weaker. Each part had it's own warp drive/shield/ and ablative armor capablities which is why it was so powerful. It was three whole ships in one, not just pieces of a whole. Besides everytime people start complaining that something is too much Cryptic goes in and changes it drasticly to the point that the special features of the ships become almost useless in being functional. Just like when people were complaing about escorts in general. Cryptic not only downsized the damage that escorts do but they also boosted the defense on cruisers to the point of being invincible, then people started complaing about that. Either deal with what is there and adjust your game play to fit the ship or use a different ship. Don't ruin it for the people that enjoy what they get.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
03-12-2011, 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
In that case, I have an equal grin on my face as I'm healing him
Heal... Hale????
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
03-12-2011, 08:05 PM
After having tried the MVAM a few days, I can say this:

It is slightly OP. I however found that the regular AE setup is more to my liking, and to heck with the Lt. Cmdr. sci.

The pets are dumb as doornails, and during a PvP match a rarely see them within 10km of me 30 seconds after seperating.

What I DO like is the turnrate. Especially of mode Beta. The other modes are just meh, and you suffer heavy loss of weapons power by using them. (-5 and -10)

Also, if you happen to be killed, you will have to wait 10 minutes to run the same mode again. And in the meantime, you'll be a regular slow-turning damn AE... :p

All in all, I don't really think a nerf is called for. Yes, it's OP compared to the AE and FE, but not really compared to the BoP, unless you can manage to go the entire fight in mode Beta without getting killed once.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
03-12-2011, 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
I however found that the regular AE setup is more to my liking, and to heck with the Lt. Cmdr. sci.
Represent,
Represent!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
03-12-2011, 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
Well I have never used an exploit like that, and in fact made videos to get them fixed...so im not sure how its only exploiters that are "whining".

My Fed team are the Legends of Star Trek, so we're restricted in which ships we can take, but there is an EMH on the way in order to justify using this new ship.

also, lolrdcypher

Just to be clear, what I said to a certain player in this thread had nothing to do with you or Qew. I was not talking about you at all. I don't consider you a exploiter and respect and enjoy running with Qew. We will just have to agree to disagree about MVAM .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
03-12-2011, 09:42 PM
Okay, guys. There seems to be a lot of semi-flaming and pointless arguing going on here. True, apologies were made, but still, it is inevitable that flaming will still happen. Doing it once on a thread is like opening Pandora's Box. So please, just say what you want to say, and state clear and concise reasons for saying it.

Onto the topic:

First, what is it that you guys are complaining about: Is it the MVAM ability, the specialized MVAM AE, the regular AE, the regular AE with MVAM, or the new AE with MVAM.

Perosnally, I would agree that the new MVAM is HIGHLY, HIGHLY OP. Okay, not that much- I just hated loosing Tac Team III for a useless Sci. slot. There probably wouldn't have been such an uproar if MVAM was just a console instead of a whole new ship.

Second, on the topic of MVAM with the old AE- Let's not forget: It may be THREE pets instead of one, but your captain's name only displays on one (you just have to spend an extra half-second cycling through), which is the one the player controls. Second, unless they use all phasers and photons, you'll be able to tell as soon as they fire their weapons which one is player controlled. 3rd, the pets are dumber than doornails, so they really don't present a viable threat. Fourth: ... This is the first special ship dedicated Escort captains have ever gotten. Everything else is either a Klink ship, Sci. ship, or Cruiser. This is the first time Tac. captains have gotten something special. Please, PLEASE don't ruin it for us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
03-12-2011, 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartan844
This is the first special ship dedicated Escort captains have ever gotten. Everything else is either a Klink ship, Sci. ship, or Cruiser. This is the first time Tac. captains have gotten something special. Please, PLEASE don't ruin it for us.

So explain then to me what the Defiant Refit was? As I'm pretty sure I had it before I got my MVAM.

Second about the complaining.
Quote:
Second, on the topic of MVAM with the old AE- Let's not forget: It may be THREE pets instead of one, but your captain's name only displays on one (you just have to spend an extra half-second cycling through), which is the one the player controls. Second, unless they use all phasers and photons, you'll be able to tell as soon as they fire their weapons which one is player controlled. 3rd, the pets are dumber than doornails, so they really don't present a viable threat.
I agree. And I don't understand all this complaining that BoP is doing. Tactically speaking PvP is set up for KFD to win. Thats tactically speaking of course. And thats for a different thread completely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
03-12-2011, 11:09 PM
I can tell you what the Defiant-R was: A downgrade to attempt to satisfy every single Fed. who said they wanted a ship with cloak. In total, however, it is a downgrade form the T5 Escort, and I have easily killed 15 of them without using the new AE or any form of MVAM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
03-12-2011, 11:44 PM
The debate over the new AE-R seems to boil down to one, primary complaint: That even with the 'gimmicky' nature of MVAM, the combination of this ability, along with the previously-unseen BOff-layout that is present on the new AE-R, it appears to be somewhat overpowered. A fair assessment needs to look at all of the factors, independently, and try to form a conclusion, based on comparison to existing ships.


First, the MVAM console:

Spam-increasing arguments aside (though, valid), the MVAM console does provide a moderate increase in versatility for the AE and AE-R. Significantly boosted agility, slightly boosted damage output (from the pets), and a plethora of useful 'extra' abilities being tossed out by the pets (APB, APD, BTSX, etc.), for a marginal cost in hull and shields, while in MVAM-mode, is a useful, perhaps, even strong ability(once factoring a fairly-long cooldown for each, individual Vector), and, like most things in the game, a group of 5 of these could prove very frustrating. Individually, this is no more overwhelming an ability than the Intrepid's Ablative Armor or the Galaxy-R's Saucer Separation (probably a little stronger than the Saucer Sep, but not overwhelmingly so, particularly once the Saucer gets its power upgrades); the pets are fairly easy to dispatch, and the effective loss of a console slot (even if it is always a Science slot) also contribute to applying an appropriate cost to the ability. The loss of hull, shields, or subsystem powers for each of the Vectors could probably use a second look, as they might need to be tweaked a little further to reflect the benefits that the Console provides.


Second, the AE-Retrofit:

Another Federation ship with a 'non-standard' BOff-layout. The trade of a Science Lt. Commander for the AE's Tactical Lt. Commander is a very different layout than has been available for Federation ships previously, and opens the door for a wide range of either CC or survival skills, particularly for non-Tactical Captains. As has been mentioned in this thread and many times elsewhere, Tactical Commander and Science Lt. Commander is the 'traditional' layout for the KDF Bird of Prey. There is no arguing that the combination IS powerful, but if it is not considered overpowered for the BoP to employ this layout, it should not be considered overpowered for this ship. In fact, unlike a BoP which has the cloak to employ the LtC Science CC powers to greatest effect (PSW, in particular), the AE-R has to put in a little extra work to try to utilize those powers.

Now, this does illustrate the increasingly severe-shortcoming that the BoP suffers in having a litany of drawbacks for its abilities.
  • Greater maneuverability is offset (rightly) by reduced hull.
  • Unprecedented versatility (Universal BOff stations) is offset by loss of an Ensign-level BOff Station (a loss that is, arguably, too severe in light of the increasing variety of potential BOff-layouts available to the Federation, thereby limiting or outright removing one of the BoP's primary selling points).
  • Battle Cloak, it can be argued, is offset by the decreased shield rating (and, again, is probably a fair trade).
  • 3/3/3 Console layout, fits with the BoP's versatility, and while it does slightly reduce the BoP's potential damage output, is the same total number of Consoles available to other T5 ships.
  • The lost rear weapon slot, again, 'thematically' fits the focused firepower nature of the BoP, but is probably the hardest design decision to defend, as this is effectively a hyper-flexible Escort, with a Science Vessel's number of weapon slots (despite having 4 forward, dual cannon-capable slots).

There is certainly basis for argument for re-evaluating the costs that the BoP has to pay for its special perks, as it is falling increasingly behind the curve in effectiveness, especially as these newer ships, with more unique BOff-layouts, become available. The hull and shield costs seem to be fair and appropriate for their return benefits, but the Console layout, weapon layout (and number), and BOff layout all seem like they need to get a good look from the Dev Team.


To the topic at hand, some questions:
  • Is the MVAM Console and ability, on their own, overpowered? Probably not, while somewhat more useful than a few other ships' special abilities (the Nebula and Galaxy spring to mind), the ability, on its own, seems to be fairly well-balanced and adds an interesting dynamic to gameplay (although, doing nothing to improve the problem with spam in PvP).
  • Is the new AE-Retrofit (without the MVAM Console) overpowered? Again, probably not, although it does give the Federation access to a BOff layout that was previously available only to the BoP, the layout itself, if not overpowered for the BoP, cannot be considered overpowered for the AE-R, particularly since the 'most' effective employment of the newly-accessible Science powers is more powerful when a Cloak is available to aid their use. However, the arrangement 'should' open the door for the Devs to, at least, take a look at and re-evaluate some of the drawbacks that the BoP suffers in exchange for its fundamental abilities.
  • In combination, is the MVAM Console and the standard Advanced Escort overpowered? It would seem that most would say that it is not, it simply adds a new 'gimmick' to the Federation arsenal. Skilled players will be able to derive maximum benefit from the ability, even if only for short times, but this will be true of all special abilities.
  • In combination, is the MVAM Console and the AE-Retrofit overpowered? The question must come back to the BOff-layout, if it is not overpowered for another ship, then it should not be considered overpowered for this ship. Likewise, if the MVAM Console is not overpowered on the standard AE, it should not be considered overpowered for the AE-R.

In conclusion, neither the new MVAM Console nor the AE-Retrofit should be considered highly overpowered. In combination, it cannot be argued that it is quite strong, stronger than some of the alternatives, certainly; however, what this new combination (and, likely, similar ships and abilities in the future) should provide, is a reason to take a close look at all of the ships at T5 (particularly, the BoP, which seems to fall further and further behind the curve, with each new ship released), to ensure that the ships remain, more-or-less, balanced against each other, in regards to ship stats, BOff layouts, weapon layouts, console layouts, etc.

Just my 2 EC,
-Big Red
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