Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 overcharged for atari credits
03-12-2011, 05:55 AM
1000 atari credits are meant tobe 7.88 gbp but charged 9.88 what gives ?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
03-12-2011, 06:07 AM
I've heard that they update the value of Atari tokens in foreign currencies several times a year to reflect current exchange rates. Maybe they recently updated it?

I read a thread about it on the forums, something about it being too much of a bother to display real-time exchange rates, so they update it every few months or something.

I don't know if that has any bearing upon your issue though. It should tell you how much they cost when you check out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
03-12-2011, 06:41 AM
Cryptic's hidden VAT trap snares another unwary customer.

Pardon the presumption, but did your purchase go something like this?:
  • Click on 1000 point option on STO website. Price listed 7.88.
  • Selected Credit Card payment method.
  • Approved purchase of 7.88.
  • Received receipt from Cryptic stating you'd paid 7.88 for 1000 points.
  • Checked credit card bill, to discover additional tax and currency conversion charge totalling 2; rolled into the price you'd already agreed to pay.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
03-12-2011, 07:31 AM
Yup, here in the UK we get shafted with that extra VAT charge being applied to the total on your card bill.

STO is the only mmo i play out of many p2p/f2p browser/client based etc that adds the extra VAT on, digital goods arent supposed to be taxable but dont tell cryptic.

On a side note, UK users can now use the buy-gift-code points options and pay in USD on paypal/card, you still get hit with the 20% tax but you end up being like 30p cheaper than buying in UK currency...

strange things indeed
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
03-12-2011, 10:15 AM
right so cryptic say your subs cost x amount an you get charged x amount, but cryptic say c-store points cost x amount and charge u z amount taking you overdrawn and getting charged 35 ye nice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
03-12-2011, 12:47 PM
When you buy goods (including goods supplied as part of a service), the law gives you certain rights as a consumer. The law says that the goods must:

* be of satisfactory quality. This means that the goods should be free of any faults, including minor ones. They should be of the quality that a reasonable person would expect given the description, price and any other relevant circumstances. You can take into account the appearance and finish of the goods, and whether there are any defects (including minor ones). You can also take into account whether publicized information about specific features of the goods is accurate, and whether the goods are safe when used properly
* be fit for the purpose. This means that you must be able to use them for the purposes that you would normally expect from this type of product, or any purpose that you have told the seller you want to use them for
* match their description. This means that if there is a verbal or written description of the goods, it must be accurate. And if you choose goods after seeing a sample, your goods must match the sample.

There are a number of things a trader is not allowed to do when they sell you goods. These include:

* make a written statement that you have no legal rights when you buy goods
* make a false description about goods
* sell dangerous or unsafe goods
* try to charge for goods sent that you didn't order
* sell short measure or short weight
* give a misleading price, either in writing or verbally.

If a trader does any of these things, you should complain to Consumer Direct see under heading Further help for details.

source http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/...our_rights.htm
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
03-12-2011, 01:41 PM
When I go to purchase Cryptc/Atari tokens I see the following text above it:

Use the form below to purchase more Atari Tokens.

Prices are not inclusive of VAT and/or other applicable local taxes.


Of course I ignore the whole VAT thing as we do not have that were I live.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
03-13-2011, 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh1ngara
There are a number of things a trader is not allowed to do when they sell you goods. These include:

*snip*
* give a misleading price, either in writing or verbally.
The problem is Cryptic (and thus Atari) may skirt the law by including the disclaimer:
Quote:
Prices are not inclusive of VAT and/or other applicable local taxes.
I would love to see how this stands under independent legal scrutiny. There is something deeply immoral, if not illegal; in obtaining the customer's approval for one price then charging another.

Ok, any lawyers in the house? UK Trade Law preferably.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
03-13-2011, 08:03 AM
I've got my international taxation book here at work. I don't know why the main owner has this book, we almost never deal with anyone except a few places in Winsor and Sarnia, and Michigan and Ontario have special arrangements that aren't covered by this book. Anyway:

Quote:
All the UK rules regarding Internet sales and electronic downloads etc are
contained in VAT Public Notice 741 and dealt with within Schedule 5
Services.

Where sales are being made from business to business (EC both registered for
VAT) then the VAT is charged where that business enjoys that service. Where
the customer is an individual (Non registered member of the public) then UK
VAT must be charged.

Sales made from inside the UK to any party outside EC then normal overseas rules apply, i.e. no VAT.

Where sales are made from outside the EC to bodies inside the UK, VAT must be charged on any exchange of goods.
then about four pages on how to remit the taxes that look like an epic annoyance.
Also, according to the book, only Washington and Michigan seem to have requirements with stating taxes before the time of sale - Canada and the UK both seem to expect the customer to understand the taxes they pay. Reading this it sounds like we have to state the price before tax, nothing requiring the price including tax or listing the tax separately.

Edit: It is very clear that digital goods are still subject to the VAT. There is a threshold, looks like it ranges from 30k to 100k depending on a page of criteria, but I can't tell if that's 30k in sales to the UK or 30k in sales total. It just says, "turnover though internet sales or otherwise exceeds that member state's VAT threshold then the business must register for VAT and to collect VAT on outputs and remit to the member state's tax authorities."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
03-13-2011, 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Also, according to the book, only Washington and Michigan seem to have requirements with stating taxes before the time of sale - Canada and the UK both seem to expect the customer to understand the taxes they pay. Reading this it sounds like we have to state the price before tax, nothing requiring the price including tax or listing the tax separately.
Thanks for taking the time to look this up for everyone.

The thing about VAT in the UK is that it is commonly included as part of the advertised price - although this appears to be optional.

The only situation where VAT is not listed is in trade catalogues, such as those listing computer parts. An individual can purchase from these, but the VAT is added at point of sale, and the customer is informed of this before payment.

The issue here is that the VAT is added AFTER the customer has agreed to the sale and given their payment details. The transaction goes like this:

Quote:
Customer: "I'd like a widget please!"
Vendor: "Certainly. That will be 1 pound."
Customer: "What an excellent deal! I will buy the widget for 1 pound."
Vendor: "Thank you. Please give me your debit card."
Customer: "Here you go!"
Vendor: "That'll do nicely! The money has been debited from your account. Here is your receipt for one widget at 1 pound."
Customer: "Thank you very much!"

Customer leaves shop. Later they check their bank balance, and return to the shop in righteous fury:

Customer: "Hey Vendor! You charged me 1.20 instead of 1 for this widget, even though you gave me a receipt for 1 and at no point in the transaction process informed me there would be a hidden cost."
Vendor: "lol VAT!"

Vendor points to printout of Trollface.jpg on counter with the caption "Prices are not inclusive of VAT and/or other applicable local taxes." stenciled along the bottom.

Other customers then point at original customer and laugh, stating that it serves the customer right for not reading the small print. The Vendor encourages the laughter by not throwing the other customers out of the shop.

Sure, it may be legally sound, but is it the right thing to do?
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