Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-22-2011, 04:34 PM
I fail to see how people needing to learn multiple mechanics is going to make anything easier. Most of the time you can't even get them to do basic things like team up, or balance their load out, much less understand what is being done to them and how to counter it. I'd love to see more people giving PVP a chance but the logic behind requiring them to learn twice as much eludes me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-22-2011, 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
I wouldn't want a newbie to have yet *another* learning curve to worry about. It would make things less fun in an environment where they already get rofl-stomped for the first few weeks of their starting to PvP.
What learning curve, its the same stupid learning curve we have now, but lowered to where they don't get as curbstomped.

Look, its been 1 year, and the only thing PvErs learned is to avoid PvP, like how most PvPers avoid ground PvP. Cryptic adding team heals didn't encourage PvErs to support one another, it just gave them an easier time soloing. And in the end, look where we are today, spamfest.

So unless the community puts up a big sign that says, "PvErs, read how to PvP", right as you enter a match, nothing is going to change unless the system itself is changed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-22-2011, 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
What learning curve, its the same stupid learning curve we have now, but lowered to where they don't get as curbstomped.

Look, its been 1 year, and the only thing PvErs learned is to avoid PvP, like how most PvPers avoid ground PvP. Cryptic adding team heals didn't encourage PvErs to support one another, it just gave them an easier time soloing. And in the end, look where we are today, spamfest.

So unless the community puts up a big sign that says, "PvErs, read how to PvP", right as you enter a match, nothing is going to change unless the system itself is changed.
The only way anyone learns not to get curbstomped is to get curbstomped, then ask questions. It's how I learned. Making it easier for the occasional pvper is the opposite of NPC spam central, but still boring and painful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-22-2011, 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
The only way anyone learns not to get curbstomped is to get curbstomped, then ask questions. It's how I learned. Making it easier for the occasional pvper is the opposite of NPC spam central, but still boring and painful.

I actually believe some in this game think if they are given the super secrets of the upper tier PvPers that they will be good second, one in "the setup". They think well so and so had all this skills active on himself when I just got rolled in 3 seconds so if I can figure out how to activate all those skills like him I can roll. The PvP in this game is tied to the "How" and "When" for powers not just the "how" for powers. The "when" part is properly the hardest thing to learn. Timing of a strike with 3 powers at the right time can be more effective then a poorly timed strike with all your skills. I will admit in an escort which I switched to on 4 of my alts has been a learning experience since I rolled a cruiser since launch.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-22-2011, 11:55 PM
Quote:
What learning curve, its the same stupid learning curve we have now, but lowered to where they don't get as curbstomped.

Look, its been 1 year, and the only thing PvErs learned is to avoid PvP, like how most PvPers avoid ground PvP. Cryptic adding team heals didn't encourage PvErs to support one another, it just gave them an easier time soloing. And in the end, look where we are today, spamfest.

So unless the community puts up a big sign that says, "PvErs, read how to PvP", right as you enter a match, nothing is going to change unless the system itself is changed.
How would such different mechanics even work? The PvP newbie would suddenly notice that none of his powers work like they used to, and fight a lots of people that know exactly how the powers work now in PvP.
Do all PvP powers suddenly work will lessened effect so that it doesn'T matter whether you use a power or not? The first time a PvP newbie then pops his RSP, he finds that his shields barely heal, totally unlike how things worked in PvE? Or he performs his perfetly executed OMGWTFPWN maneuver that works great against an NPC, and finds it ineffective against an enemy player?

And how would this even work in, say a War Zone where we got PvEvP? Would Cannon Rapid Fire have a different effect if I shoot Borg then when I shoot players? OR would the entire rule system work differently in that War Zone? Would those NPCs still be balanced against the new PvP specific values?

You're creating a lot of problems and I don't see where you improved anything.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-23-2011, 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GroomLake32
Cryptic.....As Im sure you all are already aware....scorpion fighters and cloaking tractor mines...need to be looked at. I am sure I'm not alone in the sentiment that a large portion of the player base had been begging for things that reduce the object spam/lag when in pvp...I really cannot comprehend the rational on your part for putting either of these items in game. They do NOTHING but add to the spam and/or lag in PvP.

There has not been anything yet in game that regrets me buying a lifetime membership...but you adding these two items as part of an episode series reward during the same time frame that players were begging you all to do things to reduce object lag/spam has me regretting my lifetime membership.
First of all, I don't do a lot of PvP, Just in case this post doesn't come out right.

I've found that tractor mines are very good for holding enemies that travel in packs (like borg spheres) and not as good with singe ships (besides those hugs cubes). The only lag I have encountered while using them was when I was doing infected and two others and myself were firing them off. There were too many onscreen at once. I have never had lag or spam in PvP directly resulting from these, though people who don't have them yet do complain about them.

As for fighters, there's a limit to haw many and how often they can be deployed. Again, no real problems there, PvP or not. Mostly I use them as a momentary diversion to get a torpedo or two in while the other guy shoots them. Out of PvP they work (for me) like security escorts on the ground. Just a diversion but since it's a computer generated enemy the fighters tend to last longer. They come in most handy when the enemy has multiple targeting capabilities.

Since I'm not super experienced in PvP, I really can't say much else. But I see how these coulde be easily exploited and overused. This exploit would be to the player's advantage, so long as they are deploying them. The overuse would be when too many are deployed by too many people at once, then creating lag, spam and even potential disconnects. I have had a few red banners while using these, though thankfully not in PvP.

I know that wasn't totally relevant to the post, but it came to ind. I also remember reading a post on how these items will somehow destroy PvP for all who love it. I have yet to see how. They have forced us to change strategies, yes. But you won't destroy your fight if you use them accordingly and not every time they recharge.

Just had to get that out...been on my mind...sorry for the rant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-23-2011, 01:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshi View Post
The only way anyone learns not to get curbstomped is to get curbstomped, then ask questions. It's how I learned. Making it easier for the occasional pvper is the opposite of NPC spam central, but still boring and painful.
Well this thread is really getting off track so I'll just say this, people do ask and there are those who don't. And unfortunately the majority don't and end up quitting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
How would such different mechanics even work? The PvP newbie would suddenly notice that none of his powers work like they used to, and fight a lots of people that know exactly how the powers work now in PvP.
Do all PvP powers suddenly work will lessened effect so that it doesn'T matter whether you use a power or not? The first time a PvP newbie then pops his RSP, he finds that his shields barely heal, totally unlike how things worked in PvE? Or he performs his perfetly executed OMGWTFPWN maneuver that works great against an NPC, and finds it ineffective against an enemy player?

And how would this even work in, say a War Zone where we got PvEvP? Would Cannon Rapid Fire have a different effect if I shoot Borg then when I shoot players? OR would the entire rule system work differently in that War Zone? Would those NPCs still be balanced against the new PvP specific values?

You're creating a lot of problems and I don't see where you improved anything.
As I said, the mechanics are simple. PvE gets 100% of abilities, while in PvP, powers are a fraction of what they are on the Holodeck. Thats it. So a PvErs in PvP that gets blown up in 3 seconds would be blown up in 6 seconds. Which should give them a greater reaction time and thus a easier learning curve.

Well it worked in other MMOs like Everquest. But if you guys say it won't work, I'm not going to argue. So unless there is someone willing to do some hardcore traning for PvErs or Cryptic dumbing down the system, nothing is going to change.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-23-2011, 04:25 AM
If some ask questions and try to improve while others don't, who is really to blame?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
03-23-2011, 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
If some ask questions and try to improve while others don't, who is really to blame?

QFT, there is a plethora of information here and ingame. While some info in both places maybe bad but is good enough to get started down the right path. I think I can say that for the most part most of the fleets are forthcoming and will not lead anyone astray on purpose. But remember that just because lets say SteveHale gives you a build he is using that a casual PvPer or hardcore PvEer trying to do serious PvP will not be nearly as effective.

...Well if its Steve's build you could be more effective
just kidding bud.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-23-2011, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Well this thread is really getting off track so I'll just say this, people do ask and there are those who don't. And unfortunately the majority don't and end up quitting..
With all due respect, If they don't ask, and continually curbstomped as a result, why should I or anyone else be held responsible and get a community wide nerf for it? It's not anyone else's fault that they lack curiosity and drive.

Keep in mind, also, that if they get curbstomped before, those same people will continue to get curbstomped after pvp abilities change (if they do) because we will have adapted, and they will not. I'm growing tired of this "nerf everything" attitude. The *only* thing that needs nerfing is the mechanic that allows everyone and their dog to be lazy tactically, and that is starting to happen. Planting so many mines to where CC abilities can't keep up will end, and I'm glad.
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