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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-21-2011, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyryck
Here we go again... Another plea to change, balance and overhaul STO in order to accommodate the minority "Fight Club for Trekkies" crowd.

Solution - how about PvP'ers themselves get together and agree to force themselves to use or not use equipment, builds, gear and tactics available in game instead of forcing changes to the equipment, builds, gear and tactics on all other users that don't participate in PvP?

A plasma beam boat with plasma torps is perfectly viable and usable in PvE. It's only in PvP that it's not.

A polaron cannon boat with transphasic torps is perfectly viable and usable in PvE. It's only in PVP that it's not.

Usage of all the "cluttering" skills and abilities is perfectly viable and usable in PvE. It's only in PVP that it causes issues.

Did you notice the common issue to all the different weapon usages I mentioned above? Yes, the common denominator where everything is an issue is in "PvP". Remove PvP from the scene and there are no longer any issues or need to overhaul anything. Seriously though, I do fully understand the wants of the "Fight Club for Trekkies" to be able to enjoy playing against another human. But as is often the case, PvP'ers making suggestions to change the game fail to take into account just what those changes mean to PvE'ers.

In PvE, the NPC factions and ships have coded for them modifiers, limiters and buffs to their abilities, ships and gear. If you were to bring plasma gear up in performance in order to encourage the usage of the option for PvP'ers, then you will wind up making the PvE NPC usage of those weapons systems a nightmare for PvE players. The Breen series even on normal mode would probably not be "doable" by casual players because of the Breen abilities being buffed too much.

PvP'ers are on a perpetual quest for the ultimate build using the ultimate ship with the ultimate weapons in order to ultimately PWN their opponents utterly. If all PvP'ers use the ultimate build with the ultimate ship with the ultimate weapons then it boils down to human skill.

Basically, my suggestion would be to change the PvP'ers mindset and have them all agree to use different builds, ships and weapons in their matches so that it's all "balanced" instead of trying to "balance" the game around the PvP'er.

You can call this a rant if you want to, but I did add in a suggestion that would help PvP without hurting PvE while pointing out how changes made to STO to accommodate PvP'ers would wind up making the game less enjoyable for PvE'ers.

^THIS.

Pro-PVP individuals might also consider not talking DOWN to those who simply enjoy the PvE game -- you know: the majority who pay the bills. Those that do hurt their own cause every time they post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-21-2011, 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyryck
Solution - how about PvP'ers themselves get together and agree to force themselves to use or not use equipment, builds, gear and tactics available in game instead of forcing changes to the equipment, builds, gear and tactics on all other users that don't participate in PvP?
Answer- shuttle_wars, every Saturday.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-21-2011, 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
you don't understand. 60% of our options suck. we want 0% to suck, why is that bad? adjusting the weapons that npcs and players have access to will do very little to pve, no mater what changes are made pve will always be a cake walk on any difficulty, in space at least. there will be no nightmares, the only thing that will happen is that every type of weapon will be good, not 3 out of 6 being good.
Balancing a PvE game for PvP unbalances the PvE side of the game because the PvE NPC's are already "balanced" to provide something of a challenge for the PvE player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
if you don't think normal difficulty pve is all but death proof, you really have no frame of reference on what min maxing, perfect build pvp'ers are talking about. im not trying to be mean here, but if you want to understand, start a new character and always be qued up for pvp. if you do it from tier 1, you will learn.
For you and I, PvE is death proof at the normal level and gets less so with the "advanced" and "elite" levels of the difficulty slider. But what about the normal casual STO player that doesn't have a lot of experience playing computer games?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
everyone needs to do this! seriously, if you don't please stop posting in threads like these with nonsense like oh here we go the elitist pvpers are trying to ruin the game again. you are wrong, dead wrong. there's should be no sucky options, and there should be no overpowered cheap and exploitative crap left unfixed. and when these things are fixed, pve will remain 99% the same as it was before.
Once again, you cannot change a PvE game to balance it for PvP without it causing drastic changes to the PvE game. The NPC side in the PvE game is altered, buffed and given extra abilities in order to provide something of challenge for the PvE player. If you change the ships, equipment and gear that all sides have access to in order to balance it for PvP then you upset the "balance" and "challenge" in PvE and force even more changes which cause even more imbalance which forces more changes, etc...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-21-2011, 10:36 AM
Where does the OP's suggestions leave the PvE players and the UGC out of the picture?
What he suggests and others have added too, would beneift the whole of the game not just the PvP'ers.

You could make it all marsh mellows and pillows and the ToP end PvP player will still find a way to surpass the combat abilities of a causal player in the PvP arena.
I don't see how these proposed changes or the changes on Tribble bring down the gameplay of any PvE player. If anything they are boosting thier abilities to use more viable and player unique options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyryck
For you and I, PvE is death proof at the normal level and gets less so with the "advanced" and "elite" levels of the difficulty slider. But what about the normal casual STO player that doesn't have a lot of experience playing computer games?
I find it dull on easy mode, too simple no challenge no fear of dying.
On advanced I feel a challenge as the NPC's can kill me if I do not pay attention to hwat I am doing in combat.
On Elite I constantly get my butt kicked 7 times out of 10 before finishing a mission.. The challenge is beyond my casual play style but not undoable to those who seek the only non-pvp combat challenge.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-21-2011, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyryck
Balancing a PvE game for PvP unbalances the PvE side of the game because the PvE NPC's are already "balanced" to provide something of a challenge for the PvE player.
If the NPCs are considered challenging you are doing it wrong.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyryck
For you and I, PvE is death proof at the normal level and gets less so with the "advanced" and "elite" levels of the difficulty slider. But what about the normal casual STO player that doesn't have a lot of experience playing computer games?
You mean like me this is my first MMO ever. I sucked at PvP I got facerolled by the likes of TSI, S31, QEW, LORE, players like Blackjack, Minimax, Faithborn, Ultime, Ninjaboy. guess what I got better I still get rolled on occasion. PvE is deathproof unless you get to make a sandwich, I play most dailies on elite but when I am leveling I use normal just for sheer speed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyryck
Once again, you cannot change a PvE game to balance it for PvP without it causing drastic changes to the PvE game. The NPC side in the PvE game is altered, buffed and given extra abilities in order to provide something of challenge for the PvE player. If you change the ships, equipment and gear that all sides have access to in order to balance it for PvP then you upset the "balance" and "challenge" in PvE and force even more changes which cause even more imbalance which forces more changes, etc...
All skills used in PvP are 100% more effective in PvE even up high. If I get focused in PvE EPtS and HE is really all I need if I get focused in PvP I better use every damn heal I have and ask for some from my team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-21-2011, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Where does the OP's suggestions leave the PvE players and the UGC out of the picture?
What he suggests and others have added too, would beneift the whole of the game not just the PvP'ers.

You could make it all marsh mellows and pillows and the ToP end PvP player will still find a way to surpass the combat abilities of a causal player in the PvP arena.
I don't see how these proposed changes or the changes on Tribble bring down the gameplay of any PvE player. If anything they are boosting thier abilities to use more viable and player unique options.
Changing the procs or stats on a weapon to make it more appealing to the PvP crowd means that an already "buffed" or "altered" or "special use ability" for an NPC would make the NPC that much more difficult for the PvE'er to take on. So you would have to go back and revisit every level of NPC just to make sure that it's not now "over-powered" at the normal mode for casual players.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-21-2011, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyryck
Changing the procs or stats on a weapon to make it more appealing to the PvP crowd means that an already "buffed" or "altered" or "special use ability" for an NPC would make the NPC that much more difficult for the PvE'er to take on. So you would have to go back and revisit every level of NPC just to make sure that it's not now "over-powered" at the normal mode for casual players.
Any changes made wouldn't be drastic enough to change PvE at all.

I mean, let's face it, as it is, PvE is very easy. I don't mean to belittle any PvEers or anything, but changes to PvP wouldn't have any overly detrimental changes to PvE.

And while yes, a Plasma/Transphasic build is totally viable for PvE, that Hirogen Hunter Escort you shot down isn't going to complain that such and such is OP or if something needs a buff.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-21-2011, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Answer- shuttle_wars, every Saturday.
I've been tempted a few times to break out the yacht and join in the fun, especially before the weapons get nerfed or balanced or OP'd.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
03-21-2011, 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
Any changes made wouldn't be drastic enough to change PvE at all.

I mean, let's face it, as it is, PvE is very easy. I don't mean to belittle any PvEers or anything, but changes to PvP wouldn't have any overly detrimental changes to PvE.

And while yes, a Plasma/Transphasic build is totally viable for PvE, that Hirogen Hunter Escort you shot down isn't going to complain that such and such is OP or if something needs a buff.
When you "balance" weapons for PvP as suggested in the OP, and then provide those same weapons to an NPC that is already programmed to use "normal" weapons with some special or added abiliity, then you un'balance the PvE game. And lets face it, STO is a PvE game written for the casual PvE gamer with a couple or morsels tossed in to attract the PvP'ers.

If you change a variable in an equation, then you change the outcome or result of that equation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-21-2011, 11:08 AM
Actually I think the PvP vs. PvE discussion is a red herring, and not really the best focus of conversation in this topic. I understand why people are discussing this, but they're missing the point. Tetryons are a horrible weapon. Transphasics are horrible weapons. The math is quite simple. Addition and subtraction really. Here's essentially the problem: On the one hand you have higher tier weapons that you COULD choose to purchase, which take away other options. Those weapons however, actually have a weaker secondary effect than their much cheaper lower tier weapon options. Essentially, you're shooting yourself in the foot, both in PvE and PvP by picking these. Tetryon weapons in any of my tests have never significantly effected shields any more than anything else. Plasma, of the same tier is far superior because when it procs it starts burning hull, straight through the shields entirely. Which would you prefer, a hull burn or a very mild ripdown of a shield that can be regenerated at even shield power 25. Transphasics on the other hand have a baseline damage and cooldown which mean that even if they hit bare hull every time they'd still underperform in relation to a Quantum torpedo. The same is true if the two torpedoes hit shields. No matter what the strategy, Transphasics are mathematically incapable of having an advantage. Photon torpedoes on the other hand can be spit out ad infinitum, making them the torpedo with the highest dps... if they hit an open shield facing.

Polaron I have a hard time making judgments on. These weapons are probably best used with an energy siphon build. Ie: Someone who uses Tyken's rift, Target subsystems, Energy Siphon, etc. I can imagine a Science Ship, with Polarons could at least potentially cause the crash of 2 subsystems on a ship. So while I've never tested it I think there is potential here. That they should cost more than everything else is beyond me however.

Antiproton Beams are fantastic for damage output, their only problem is their skillpoint cost. You can either choose to go disruptor which takes 10% of their damage resistance, and pay 1800 less skillpoints or you can pay the added 1800 skillpoints and have higher critical hits. As I see it, I'd p refer my disruptors.

I think they seriously need to look at making all of these weapons on the same tier. The balance should come in that if you're Federation, the fancy Phasers should be easier to get. If you're Fed and you want to wield these other weapon types, You need to perform some heroic crafting/pvp/pve content to do so. Nothing too ridiculous mind you. There's also always the exchange. Disruptors for Klingons. Polarons for Dominion, etc.

The two weapons where I really see great disparity is Tetryon and Transphasic, and I think most experienced players agree. PvP or PvE player. These weapons certainly have potential. For instance, I think if they gave the Transphasic the same Cap level damage of a Quantum, but with a bad recharge it might properly balance itself out with Quantums. For Tetryons they need to make the weapons hurt shields more.

This brings up another power. Tachyon Beam. Now I've never tried stacking something like Tachyon Beam with Tetryon weapons, but based on my playtesting of Tachyon Beam it has never performed very well. I think you get a lot more mileage out of other abilities with your science officers. This is another power/ability that really underperforms.
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