Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
03-20-2011, 10:10 PM
They have to catch this and fix it. I mean, something this broken simply can't make it to Holodeck.

... Right?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
03-21-2011, 12:40 AM
Make sure to give your Feedback on Tribble as well. In the Release Notes thread, and perhaps a dedicated BFAW thread.

And also make sure your feedback is based on facts and not claims. Just to be sure.

How many shots are fired per beam cycle modified by BFAW? What does the individual shot do?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
03-21-2011, 12:41 AM
This comes from iceroid, who I truest. But I'll be sure to test myself as well.
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# 14
03-21-2011, 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
CSV does frak all dmg when compared to CRF which uses the same skill level power.

So you lose single target damage if you use CSV when compared to standard CRF.

With this change to BFAW you wont loose any single target damage and instead get the same dps as standard beam broadsiding on another random target. So essentially your damage output is doubled.

On top of that you get the +% damage bonus also that comes with FAW

so if you where to run BFAW3 you would get +140% DPS output, compared to CSV 3 which is a pathetic + 25%

wow really balanced, combined with the changes to reduce spam. BFAW is going to be the NEW OP

this is looking like another epic fail by cryptic again.

Edit , oh yea and CSV is a higher slot power so it should be far better than BFAW. Looking at the upcoming BFAW changes this is not the case. Its still not even worth a higher slot compared to BFAW as it currently operates atm and now BFAW is getting another buff.
CSV does more damage than CRF? I thought CRF fires more quickly for less damage which meant the two were about equal on their single target damage and CSV had the bonus of hitting my target's two best friends for 80% damage.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
03-21-2011, 03:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamikazKid
CSV does more damage than CRF? I thought CRF fires more quickly for less damage which meant the two were about equal on their single target damage and CSV had the bonus of hitting my target's two best friends for 80% damage.
It depends on what you count, but basically

Cannon Rapid Fire deals the most damage against a single target. It increases your firing rate, the individual shots might deal less damage, but the damage/seconds still increases effectively.

Cannon Scatter Volley provides a smaller damage buff against a single target than Cannon Rapid Fire. But CSV hits multiple targets, so if you count the damage you deal overall, it can go way above the current value.

If I read snix and Salami_Inferno notes correctly:
Cannon Scatter Volley (since a long time) hits your primary target and 2 randomly determined target. You actually create more shots during that cycle. The damage per shot is also increased. That increase is lower than that of CRF, but you still hit 3 times as many targets as normal, so if you just count overall damage regardless of target, CSV generates more DPS than CRF. But usually ,you really want to deal a lot of damage against a single target to overcome its healing capabilities, and damage to non-primary targets is not that relevant. But for "soft" targets like pets, mines and unbuffed noobs with snail-like reflexes, CSV is preferrable.

Beam Fire At Will appears to work more closely to CSV now, except it only hits one random second target. What is unclear to me currently is the extra shots generated by BFAW hit the primary target as well if there is no second target to hit, and if the individual shot's damage is reduced to make up for the extra damage potential then. The "old" BFAW generated only 1 extra shot over the beam's firing cycle, and could hit the primary target again, so if you isolated the target, you had a single target buff, and if you did not, you had a spam clearance buff.
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# 16
03-21-2011, 05:41 AM
Hold your horses here now. I feel the need for an extensive analysis:

Ok, so the first target recieves damage from beams.
How about the secondary beam? Does ALL Arrays/DBBs select the same target? Even if there is more than 2 targets present? And do they stay on secondary target or does this jump randomly? The way I read the notes, each array will choose one secondary target, not necessarily the same. If each array is selecting it's own seconday target, FAW will remain just as useless as before.

Even if the damage is simply split between 2 targets, this is still not much better than CSV, if at all. Let's compare FAW3 to CSV2:

arc: DBB=90, DHC=45
damage increase: FAW3=40%, CSV2=20%
number of targets: FAW=2, CSV=3
base damage modifier from weapon type: DBB=1, DHC=1.25, Turrets=0.56
Up-time: FAW=3/4, CSV=2/3

Let's set up an example. I'll give the DBB base DPS at 100, DHC at 125, and turrets at 56. (http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpr...pons-overview/)

DBB= 100
FAW3= 40 (*3/4=30 for reduced uptime)
DHC= 125
CSV2= 25 (*2/3=17 for reduced uptime)
Turret=56
CSV2 turret= 11 (*2/3=7 for reduced uptime)
already you can see the cannons are putting out more DPS than the Beams. (150 over 140) Now if we set it up on an escort with 4 weapons front and 3 turrets aft we get:

4xDBB+3xTurret= 744
4xDHC+3xTurret= 824

so the damage given to the primary target is 10% higher for the Cannon build. Slight advantage Cannons.

the real difference is that CSV deals the same damage to TWO other targets, while FAW deals this only to ONE. Total DPS output from cannons will land at 824*3=2472, while the beam-escort will land at 1488. This means that the CSV build will give 66% more damage output than the FAW!
(provided you can keep target in arc.)


Conclusion:

FAW advantages: Higher damage to primary target above 5km+ range, easier to get target in arc.

CSV advantages: 10% higher damage to primary target, higher damage to targets at less than 5km range, 3 targets, difficult to counter, 66% higher total damage output.

FAW disadvantages: Easily countered, does not stop damaging friendlies when scrambled, harder to avoid unvanted targets in arc. Does not help aft weapons. Lower damage to primary target at ranges less than 5km.

CSV disadvantages: Harder to get target in arc.


From what I can see from these numbers, FAW3 even with the proposed changes, will still be a worthless ability, and by far inferior to CSV2, both for pet-sweeping and single target damage.

(I'm completely discounting the beam boat with FAW, I doubt it can do much good beyond mine/pet cleaning, and is a horrible liability if scrambled. If secondary target is selected same for all arrays, AND if it sticks to that target for the duration of the FAW cycle, I guess it it can be somewhat randomly useful. But keeping 2 targets broadside at the same time is very hard, and at a new firing cycle the secondary target will be chosen from fresh.)

EDIT IN RED: FAW DPS output slightly reduces based on reply from Bigredjedi concerning uptime.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
03-21-2011, 05:45 AM
Ya'll are making a mountain out of a molehill. To prove it, here are numbers from a test I just ran using the same character in the same mission against the same NPC. Both tests were done with the same buffs, Tac Team 1, EPS Power Transfer and Nadion Inversion on a Captain 3 in a Vor'Cha. with 3 Phaser Dual Beam Banks. I avoided using other abilities to keep the two tests as close as possible and to be easier to strip the logs down to show just the shots relevant to this discussion.

On Holodeck I counted 40 FAW2 shots. On Tribble I counted 32, but the target moved behind a small asteroid which prevented firing for a few shots in the middle, so would have been 40 shots as well.

As you can see from the shots, both Holodeck and Tribble have the shots doing approximately the same damage with each shot. However, it appears that most of the shots on Holodeck were slightly higher damage than on Tribble.

Holodeck
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 162 (861) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 753 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 722 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 836 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 800 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 834 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 684 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 80 (797) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 75 (748) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 80 (801) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 92 (916) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 97 (969) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 80 (800) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 85 (855) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 95 (949) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 93 (930) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 84 (844) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 76 (763) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 75 (749) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 79 (786) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 84 (840) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 82 (824) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 95 (952) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 95 (945) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 93 (872) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 887 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 876 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 804 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 966 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 83 (832) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 531 (935) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 90 (896) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 96 (958) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 86 (864) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 98 (980) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 86 (855) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 99 (988) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 89 (894) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 196 (897) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 199 (948) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 957 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 254 (969) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 1040 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 993 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 829 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.

Tribble
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 68 (681) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 61 (613) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 56 (562) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 58 (575) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 60 (600) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 59 (591) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 55 (547) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 70 (704) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 70 (700) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 622 (641) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 60 (603) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 483 (639) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 579 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 555 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 605 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 506 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 795 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 748 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 780 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 677 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 703 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 740 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 1124 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 671 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 64 (641) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 465 (587) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 527 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 525 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 541 Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 68 (685) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 83 (831) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 80 (797) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 72 (720) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 74 (742) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Beam Banks - Fire at Will II deals 83 (825) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Your Dual Phaser Banks deals 74 (739) Phaser Damage to Typhoon Class Battleship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
03-21-2011, 07:33 AM
I encourage everyone to use my Foundry Project "Mustrum Ridcully's Combat Simulator" to test such things. That should lead to less ships flying between asteroids. :p

Or alternatively (I think that worked best for Nagorak and BigRedJedi in their respective DPS and shield resistance tests) find a second player and shoot each other in Ker'rat or private challenges.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
03-21-2011, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
They have to catch this and fix it. I mean, something this broken simply can't make it to Holodeck.

... Right?
lol- Right. In theory at least.


Me, I plan to wait and see if this means a new loadout for a Vov.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
03-21-2011, 08:18 AM
wrong wrong and wrong again.

Ok lets compare two setups shall we

Setup 1

3x forward DBB 125 weapon power using BFAW3

vs

Setup 2
3x forward DHC 125 weapon power using CSV2


For single target damage
Setup 1 is a clear winner. It does more damage all the time at ranges 3km and higher, and it has a greater arc and even bigger damage boost >3km and has a longer uptime. So against a single target this is far superior than CSV. So for single target DPS, CRF > BFAW > CSV.


The above is according to current holodeck setting without the proposed changes. Even though it was better for single target damage is wasn't that bad because the target selection was random, so it was more of a spam cleaning role.


Now according to so called proposed changes you have no more random selection and gain + 1 free shot at another target with BFAW, with no loss in single target damage, so essentially against two targets you would have 100% damage increase because you get a free shot off at that second target.

Now factor into that everything written in yellow and you can see just how overpowered this is going to be. BFAW will be superior in all almost every way except for when the player is able to keep 3 targets in forward arc all the time using CSV (lol never). That is the only situation when CSV will be better or as effective as this proposed change to BFAW.

Ok yea i haven't been bothered to go out and do actual in game testing against multiple targets with the new changes, but from what it looks like on paper, you would have to be an utter fool to even bother taking CSV over BFAW for both single target and multiple target DPS.
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