Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
03-21-2011, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor

arc: DBB=90, DHC=45
damage increase: FAW3=40%, CSV2=20%
number of targets: FAW=2, CSV=3
base damage modifier from weapon type: DBB=1, DHC=1.25, Turrets=0.56
Up-time: FAW=1/1, CSV=2/3
This is not entirely accurate...

Beam: Fire at Will has:
  • 15 Seconds active.
  • 30 Seconds Individual Cooldown.
  • 20 Seconds Global Cooldown

Thus, BFAW, in a 60-second cycle, can be activated 3 times (assuming 2 copies of the power), e.g. [45 / 60] Seconds of up-time, a [3 / 4] Ratio.


Cannon: Scatter Volley is accurately described:
  • 10 Seconds Active.
  • 30 Seconds Individual Cooldown.
  • 15 Seconds Global Cooldown.

Thus, CSV, in a 60-second cycle, can be activated 4 times (assuming 2 copies of the power), e.g. [40 / 60] Seconds of up-time, a [2 / 3] Ratio.

All that said, on paper, it does sound like a powerful twist on the ability, although the concerns over its utility seem unfounded, as, on paper, it now seems that it does precisely what it did previously, only now, you gain an additional attack per beam weapon pulse (total of +3 pulses) instead of gaining +1 pulse per cycle... Additionally, it sounds as though you are guaranteed (assuming that you have a target selected) that the first of those two attacks per pulse, will strike your selected target, while the second attack of each pulse will use the current, randomized targeting protocols (which may, perhaps, also hit your current target). Planning to test on Tribble at the earliest opportunity...

Just something to keep in mind...
-Big Red
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
03-21-2011, 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I encourage everyone to use my Foundry Project "Mustrum Ridcully's Combat Simulator" to test such things. That should lead to less ships flying between asteroids. :p

Or alternatively (I think that worked best for Nagorak and BigRedJedi in their respective DPS and shield resistance tests) find a second player and shoot each other in Ker'rat or private challenges.
Best way to test, by far... As it allows you to control ALL aspects of testing (assuming your fellow player is willing to take the necessary time)...

Things like:
  • Different base Weapon Power Levels.
  • Different opponent shield types.
  • Different opponent Shield Power Levels.
  • Synergies with other powers (Attack Patterns, Target Subsystems, various Science powers, etc.)
  • Damage drop-off over range, expected vs. tested.
  • Lots of other things...



-Big Red



If work and weird hours didn't prevent me from spending as much time in-game as I would like... I'd offer to set this up, but it's hard to pin down definite times that I can be available...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
03-21-2011, 10:44 AM
Yea CSV, like all cannon abilities, suffers a very large and disproportionate drop in damage as the range goes beyond 3-4KM. Since cannons have such a narrow arc the only way to really effectively get 2-3 targets reliably in that cone is to engage at a greater distance, effectively increasing the AOE zone. Obviously, this also leads to a tremendous drop in damage in what already is a fairly shabby damage dealing skill.

I don't really have a problem with CSV the way it is currently but rather that it "costs" too much. Drop CSV 1,2,and 3 to Ensign, Lieutenant, and Lt. Commander respectively and I would be happy. It would probably make it a bit more common of a skill which would be nice in that it might lead to less spam on the battlefield.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
03-21-2011, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorFury View Post
Yea CSV, like all cannon abilities, suffers a very large and disproportionate drop in damage as the range goes beyond 3-4KM. Since cannons have such a narrow arc the only way to really effectively get 2-3 targets reliably in that cone is to engage at a greater distance, effectively increasing the AOE zone. Obviously, this also leads to a tremendous drop in damage in what already is a fairly shabby damage dealing skill.

I don't really have a problem with CSV the way it is currently but rather that it "costs" too much. Drop CSV 1,2,and 3 to Ensign, Lieutenant, and Lt. Commander respectively and I would be happy. It would probably make it a bit more common of a skill which would be nice in that it might lead to less spam on the battlefield.
So you say that 3 DBB FAW3 will do more dmg than 3 DHC rapid fire 3 to a single target? And FAW3 will do more dmg than CSV3 to multiple targets?
And 3 DBB FAW3+APB3/APO3 will do more dmg than 3 DHC CRF3/CSV3+APB2/APO2?

IMO cruisers dont need boost to damage as they can use like DEM3+EMPTW3 *****, and still have enough heals and dmg resistance stacks. A new type of FAW will turn this again really "cruiser online" sh*t

And making CRF1 and CSV1 to ensing will favor cruisers/sci ships. I would say lets make FAW3 a cmdr tact ability. But its just my opinion.

Hope you guys can test it in pvp too. Cant wait the results
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
03-21-2011, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle-Phoenix View Post
So you say that 3 DBB FAW3 will do more dmg than 3 DHC rapid fire 3 to a single target? And FAW3 will do more dmg than CSV3 to multiple targets?
And 3 DBB FAW3+APB3/APO3 will do more dmg than 3 DHC CRF3/CSV3+APB2/APO2?

IMO cruisers dont need boost to damage as they can use like DEM3+EMPTW3 *****, and still have enough heals and dmg resistance stacks. A new type of FAW will turn this again really "cruiser online" sh*t

And making CRF1 and CSV1 to ensing will favor cruisers/sci ships. I would say lets make FAW3 a cmdr tact ability. But its just my opinion.

Hope you guys can test it in pvp too. Cant wait the results
You can't Run CRF3 and APO2/3....only APO1 for the record. Outside of that you lost me with what exactly you are asking. I do agree with what you said about the cruisers. And lastly, I wasnt saying to move CRF down a notch on the BoFF position only suggested lowering CSV....or raising BFaW I guess would work too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
03-21-2011, 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorFury View Post
Yea CSV, like all cannon abilities, suffers a very large and disproportionate drop in damage as the range goes beyond 3-4KM.
Actually, unbuffed cannons out-DPS DBBs up to 7km. Given a 40% buff to DBBs and a 20% to DHCs, Cannons will give more damage up to about 4.9km. http://theenginescannaetakeit.files....ison-graph.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
For single target damage
Setup 1 is a clear winner. It does more damage all the time at ranges 3km and higher, and it has a greater arc and even bigger damage boost >3km and has a longer uptime. So against a single target this is far superior than CSV.
As my calculations in previous post shows, if you manage to stay within 5km range you will get higher single target damage from DHCs. You will have a harder job keeping target in arc, but you will also get twice as much AoE damage with CSV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
BFAW will be superior in all almost every way except for when the player is able to keep 3 targets in forward arc all the time using CSV (lol never)..
In almost all situations Cannons will deal more damage to your primary target, and the AoE attack is potentially 100% more effective than that of FAW... (With the amount of spam in PvP lately, I'd say it is very hard indeed to not have 3 or more objects in arc :p)


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedJedi
This is not entirely accurate...
Appreciate the input! Figures updated in my previous post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
03-21-2011, 01:08 PM
From playing on tribble. I noticed that against a single Target, FAW works the way it normally seems to.. But against MULTIPLE targets, Faw becomes a BEAST.

If you do a simple Circle, or keep all your targets on a broadside arc, your doing the same damage to EVERY target with each beam that fires and hits the Non targeted targets. Single Beam Arrays are definitely the way to go for this tactic. As you get more weapons fireing if you get a broadside. And if you have an Engineer, or are an Engineer, and can keep your weapon power HIGH during the FAW fireing sequence, it can simply destroy not just 1 target, but MULTIPLE targets in your Weapon Arcs. You become a sphere of death with FAW 3 while keeping on target.

I can see how this would definitely be a problem if EVERYONE has Faw. 1 Target is called, and EVERYONE turns on FAW. This might very well be the death of Balling up stratagies.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
03-21-2011, 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
Actually, unbuffed cannons out-DPS DBBs up to 7km. Given a 40% buff to DBBs and a 20% to DHCs, Cannons will give more damage up to about 4.9km. http://theenginescannaetakeit.files....ison-graph.jpg



As my calculations in previous post shows, if you manage to stay within 5km range you will get higher single target damage from DHCs. You will have a harder job keeping target in arc, but you will also get twice as much AoE damage with CSV.



In almost all situations Cannons will deal more damage to your primary target, and the AoE attack is potentially 100% more effective than that of FAW... (With the amount of spam in PvP lately, I'd say it is very hard indeed to not have 3 or more objects in arc :p)




Appreciate the input! Figures updated in my previous post.
I'd check out STO Starship Calculator....at 5KM an unbuffed DHC with 125 weapon Power is showing a damage at 132.972 compared to a DBB at 137.457 as you move further out the numbers become more disproportionate up to 10KM with the DHC at 61.541 vs the DBB at 105.806

A CRF3 at 10KM bumps that DHC up to 92.311 which is still lower than a completely unbuffed DBB running no skills. A CSV3 at that same range is doing 76.926 which is terrible.....You have to be under 7km running CSV3 to have damage output vs a single target outperform an unbuffed DBB with no skills running.

Running CSV for single target damage is probably a bad idea in my opinion. Having a CSV1 to help clear out spam is fine but I wouldn't count on using it as my primary source of damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
03-21-2011, 02:08 PM
So, assuming you have a single, isolated target, does this mean that BFAW = BOV without the power drain?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
03-21-2011, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipermist
wrong wrong and wrong again.

Ok lets compare two setups shall we

Setup 1

3x forward DBB 125 weapon power using BFAW3

vs

Setup 2
3x forward DHC 125 weapon power using CSV2
This alone invalidates everything else you said, because you're comparing a Level 3 FAW to a Level 2 CSV. This ls like comparing a MK 5 DHC to a MK7 DHC, of course the MK7 is going to do more, it's a more powerful version. It does not matter if these two versions you're comparing take the same officer rank slot., just at a maxed out Tetryon weapons skill and Maxed out Polaron weapons skill both boost their respective weapons types by the same amount, but the first requires you be a Captain to even training it while the 2nd requires you be an admiral/general to train it. Now if you took one captain with maxed Tetryons and a copy of the same captain but could only raise Polarons by 7 points instead of the full 9 then ran a with both, you could say the Tetryons are better because they did more damage than the Polarons. While this is true, for the number of skill points spent on each, it's still comparing one maxed out weapon to one that's not maxed out.

In other words, you're comparing an grapefruit to an orange. Sure they're both citrus fruits, but the grapefruit is larger.

Now, if you want to test BFAW2 to CSV2 because you can't get CSV3 or don't have the space to slot it, that's fine, it would be a valid test because you're comparing like levels of the two skills.
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