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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
03-24-2011, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
Sounds sort of like Black Ops HQ maps.
Never played that game, but it's hardly the first time I've seen that idea implemented.

Infact, when I was first learning how to play this game that was a huge shocker for me, was that cap and hold literally had nothing in the way of perks for points captured, or anything for the more offense minded team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Open PvP Zone Sector Block
An entire sector block seated between Klingon, Romulan and Federation space, preferably also near Cardassian space.

The Open PvP Sector Block has an exploration cluster attached to it that allows certain PvE related activities to contribute to the overall territory control game. Unique for that cluster is that all factions can visit it, and that it is possible to engage enemies. (More below)

The Sector Block is distributed by a grid. Each section of the grid has a unique PvP objective attached to it, a "point of interest".

Sector Space Engagements
This is an option in Open PvP Sector Blocks and Open PvP Exploration Clusters.

Players can choose to attack another player in sector space. The players are transferred to a PvP enabled map, and a marker indicating an ongoing battle is placed on the sector block. Other players can choose to join.

The map is either determined randomly or depends on the sector. The maps might have unique "unfair" features - like a map where cloaking devices do not work, a map full of (micro)nebulas where ships can hide in.

A player has the option to reject a battle while still in Sector Space, or to yield and give up. In addition, the map scenario is concluded after a certain number of deaths, or an alternative "win" conditon - like hiding succesfully for at least 5 minutes in a nebula, or collecting certain materials that help the players escape.

Whether your opponent gives up voluntarily or fails the objective, the winning side earns bonus points towards the territorial control game.

Once a faction has a certain amount of minimum points in an area, it can mount an attack on the PvP objective.

Such engagements do not only have to be Space PvP objectives. One side can choose to force a ground battle, representing both sides fighting for a particular object or person of interest. (The side that makes the decision is the one that is currently controlling the grid element, or the attacker, if neither party has control.)

Territory Control Mechanics
The goal of the territory control game is to capture the different PvP objectives and move your way towards the enemy base.

Earning and Losing Control Points

PvE Exploration Missions
Completing Exploration Missions earns you items that represent effectively control points, or change how many control points you can earn.
•Assault Points: Some missions earn you items that grant you assault points. Assault points can be spent on sectors controlled by the enemy and lowers their control points, and provides a small buff to control points earned when you win Open PvP Engagements. Assault points are represented by trade items representing weapons and engine technology or deliveries, military aid agreements, or ships.
•Defense Points: Some missions earn you items that grant you defense points. Defense points can be spent on sectors controlled by yourself and give you a small bonus to your control points. It provides a small debuff to control points earned by your enemy when they win Open PvP egangements. Defense Points are represented by shields and hull technology or deliviers, peace agreements or research aid.
Losing a battle in a PvE Exploration Zone causes you to earn a specific debuff that lasts for a certain time or until you won again. While the debuff lasts, you cannot use Assault or Defense Points.

Sector Space Engagements
If you win a sector space engagement, your faction gains control points in that grid section.

Conquering or Raidinga PvP Objective
If you succesfully raid or conquer a PvP objective, you earn control points for all grid sections you control, and the enemy loses control points for all grid sections you control.

Conquering and Raiding
Each Sector Grid has a major location each party is fighting for. We assume that the goal is never to destroy the location, as it is too valuable.

To be able to mount any attack at all, your faction control points need to exceed a certain minimum threshold.
Raiding
You can raid if you have reached only the minimum threshold, but have less than the attacker. Raiding leads to a different mission then conquering an area. The goal of a raid is typically damaging the station, sabotaging it, stealing supplies, or halting supply deliveries.

Optionally, a raid might merely be a PvE mission, with all the rules of an STF, e.g. requiring a 5 man team - no more, no less, or a Fleet Action, or it is afully fledged PvP scenario.

A possible restriction for a Raid might be that it's always a small team and not quite "Open", and there might be more PvE elements.

If you succesfully raid an enemy controlled objective, your enemy loses control points in that grid section and all adjoining ones, opening his position for further attacks.

Conquering
If you have reached the minimum threshold and your control points exceed those of your opponents, you can launch a conquest. There might need to be a certain window on which a conquest is possible to allow players in the area to coordinate an assault.
Conquest usually is composed of multiple phases, and should always contain space and ground elements.

Attacking the enemy faction's HQ
Attacking the enemy head quarter is particular challenging task. Raids and Conquest missions will always include NPC enemies to make up missing player ranks to achieve a high difficulty level. A succesful conquest gives access to special missions to both sides (including stuff like adding a PvP enabled version of ESD or Q'onos). After the "conquest", you might not really "own" the new station, but you might get access to unique vendors, while your enemy loses all access to its HQ's perks.

Owning and Maintaining a a grid section

Perks of owning a grid section
When you the proud owner of a grid section, you have access to its perks. You need a certain minimum threshold of control points to have actual access.
•NPC Vendors for rare or very rare gear, some only available at this location
•NPC Bridge Officer trainer that train rank III skills (costs are higher than usual, of course)
•NPC Bridge Officer aquisition with superior traits (costs are higher than usual, of course)
•Access to Crafting Station for unusual gear, including possibly set items and consumables.
•Territory Control Advantage Abilities. These abilities gain advantages in engagements that happen as part
•Increased control point gains in adjoining sectors.

Maintaining a grid section
Maintaining includes protecting yourself from PvP Raids and Conquest attempts, but also PvE goals. If you fail to satisfy these goals, you lose control points. Achieving the goals might yield rewards on your own, as you complete unique PvE or PvP missions.

Grid Section Points of Interest
These are example of the various PvP objectives. Some might be available multiple times.

Tachyon Detection Grid Command Center
The Tachyon Detection Grid Command Center coordinates the various tachyon detection satellites throughout the sector. Controlling it grants access to its resources, and also allows sabotage of opponent's tachyon detection abilities.

On the Grid Command Center, you can acquire two consumables. Each consumable has 3 charges, requires no device slot and is unique, e.g. you can have only one of each on you. They have a shared 2 minute cooldown and an individual 5 minute cooldown.
•Tachyon Detection Aid: For 15 seconds, all hostile cloaked vessels are revealed on your current map.
•Tachyon Detection Sabotage: For 30 seconds, Tachyon Detection Aid is supressed on your current map.

Subspace Communication Relais
Owning the relais gives instant and safe subspace communication between all vessels in the area, and allows your side to react more quickly to threats.
On the Relais, you can acquire one consumable. The consumable has 3 charges, requires no device slot and is unique, and has a 5 minute cooldown. Upon consumption, you call in one PvE ship to your aid. The ship lasts until it is destroyed or you leave the current map.

Nebula Mining Facility
A mining facility in the middle of a nebula that is used to mine various gases.
You can get Hydrogen Surplus fuel or similar things here.

Dilithium Mining Facility
A planetary mining facility where you gather dilithium.
You might earn "raw dilithium" crystal consumables that provide a boost of sector space speed.

Transwarp Gate
Owning the transwarp gate allows you to buy a consumable transwarp token with which you can reach it at any time from any location. (Which allows you to get faster into the PvP area if you're doing something else, but you have to defend a PvP objective, or attack one.)

Research & Development Station
A station where you get access to Rank III power trainers for Science skills, and craft special science consoles, deflectors, science kits and personal shields.

Repair Facility
A station where ships can go to repair ship injuries. On the station you can also find a Rank III power trainer for Engineering skills, and craft special engineering consoles, impulse engines, engineering kits, and personal armor

Military Observation Post
A base within an asteroid field. Grants access to Rank III power trainier for Tactical skills, and you can craft special tactical consoles, shield arrays, tactical kits and personal weapons.

Planetary Colony
A large planet with cities and all. Grants you access to new Duty Officers and rare bridge officers.

Large Nebula
A large, expansive nebula that hinders interstellar navigation. Freighters of both factions fly through its thinnest area, but need to drop to sublight at a few spots, increasing the risk of raids.
Features an Open PvP zone where you defend or attack enemy freighters.
Raids focus on conquering enemy freighters (and the defenders try to save them), Conquest is about taking control of various satellites within the nebula that are used to determine the safest path through it.

Faction HQ
The faction HQ provides access to an Emblem Vendor and normal Crafting consoles and maybe even special crafting consoles for unusual weapons.. While you have control of your HQ, you also have access to "generic" mission givers that set PvP and Territory Control related goals, like "conquer grid x-y" or "destroy 20 player ships" or "win 5 Open PvP battles".
If you've lost control, your only mission is to retake your HQ.
The HQ might be associated to a station, but might actually be located on an inhabitated planet, allowing more interesting plantery and urban warfare on the ground.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
03-25-2011, 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Updated the post. Thanks

---

The idea is not to be usually able to attain those values in a single match, but it's accumulated over many. (maybe space healing seems to low for that now?)
Of course, some really long matches might get you to those values. But basically, the idea is to need something like 1-2 hours of play to get there, and while it is technically a Daily, it is not expected many can finish it on one day.

I never finish all my Dailies each day...
Thinking about it more I do have some concerns if the rewards are too high. It's been my experience things like what was originally suggested become a goal instead of a means. Like the problem of teaching to a test people won't try and win, instead they will try to max heals or damage at an individual level. A worse case scenorio would be 2 teams built to min/max heals and damage on eachother w/o killing to get emblems asap.

I'd have a rule the victors of a match get awarded more emblems than any combined individual achievement emblems can be farmed. For example, if the max amount emblems awarded for victory in a day is 5 then 4 would be the max I'd want for individual achievements.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
03-25-2011, 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
Thinking about it more I do have some concerns if the rewards are too high. It's been my experience things like what was originally suggested become a goal instead of a means. Like the problem of teaching to a test people won't try and win, instead they will try to max heals or damage at an individual level. A worse case scenorio would be 2 teams built to min/max heals and damage on eachother w/o killing to get emblems asap.
Farming is always a problem in PvP, since players can collude with each other, where NPCs are generally less cooperative about these kinds of shenanigans (maybe it's cause they never seem to get much out of anything we do in the game, other than their swift and certain demise). Anyway, the random nature of public matches throws something of a wrench into these sorts of plans, since even if people team, they will likely wind up facing off with an unenlightened or uncooperative PUG on the other side. This is also why private challenges should not count at all toward these rewards; only "sanctioned" matches scheduled through the regular, public queues. Nothing is going to eliminate this behavior entirely, but you can easily make it more trouble than it's worth.

On another level though, I actually don't care that much either. If people are that determined to set up purpose-built teams just to mindlessly spam spacebar and farm emblems, well, more power to them. I'm more concerned that people who are legitimately playing real PvP matches all day should have a reasonable, tangible reward for the time they spend playing the game, just like those who spend all their time pummeling NPCs. It's not going to take anything away from your rewards if other people are that determined to waste their time trying to sploit the system rather than just playing the game. There isn't, after all, a limited supply of purple stuff to go around. And it's not like Ker'rat where they're robbing actual loot from players in the same zone who are trying to play by the rules.

So the system should discourage farming as much as possible, and make it a waste of time as much as feasible, but the possibility of farming also should not be such a concern that it gimps the system for those who just want to use it legitimately, or prevents there from being any system at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
03-25-2011, 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heezdedjim
Farming is always a problem in PvP, since players can collude with each other, where NPCs are generally less cooperative about these kinds of shenanigans (maybe it's cause they never seem to get much out of anything we do in the game, other than their swift and certain demise). Anyway, the random nature of public matches throws something of a wrench into these sorts of plans, since even if people team, they will likely wind up facing off with an unenlightened or uncooperative PUG on the other side. This is also why private challenges should not count at all toward these rewards; only "sanctioned" matches scheduled through the regular, public queues. Nothing is going to eliminate this behavior entirely, but you can easily make it more trouble than it's worth.

On another level though, I actually don't care that much either. If people are that determined to set up purpose-built teams just to mindlessly spam spacebar and farm emblems, well, more power to them. I'm more concerned that people who are legitimately playing real PvP matches all day should have a reasonable, tangible reward for the time they spend playing the game, just like those who spend all their time pummeling NPCs. It's not going to take anything away from your rewards if other people are that determined to waste their time trying to sploit the system rather than just playing the game. There isn't, after all, a limited supply of purple stuff to go around. And it's not like Ker'rat where they're robbing actual loot from players in the same zone who are trying to play by the rules.

So the system should discourage farming as much as possible, and make it a waste of time as much as feasible, but the possibility of farming also should not be such a concern that it gimps the system for those who just want to use it legitimately, or prevents there from being any system at all.
To be clear my concern isn't people farming gear. As you point out there isn't really a competitive market in this game. (Which imo is a good thing with the exception of any future PvP sector space and those imo shouldnt be unique with a further exception of PvP fleet bases.) Back to my point. My main concern is people will change their playstyles and setups to farm in PuG or "sanctioned" matches. I think it's most fun when people play to win and/or try a variety of setups. Putting emblem tasks for PvP matches award people who are there is a good thing, I just would be concerned it they would accumulate to more than actually winning. Again my concern what rewards would do to playstyles, not that people get them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
03-26-2011, 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
To be clear my concern isn't people farming gear. As you point out there isn't really a competitive market in this game. (Which imo is a good thing with the exception of any future PvP sector space and those imo shouldnt be unique with a further exception of PvP fleet bases.) Back to my point. My main concern is people will change their playstyles and setups to farm in PuG or "sanctioned" matches. I think it's most fun when people play to win and/or try a variety of setups. Putting emblem tasks for PvP matches award people who are there is a good thing, I just would be concerned it they would accumulate to more than actually winning. Again my concern what rewards would do to playstyles, not that people get them.
Well, that's legit. I guess it's hard to think of a setup (other than colluding teams) where damage and (ally) healing don't equate pretty directly with playing to win. I was responding to your worst case of two teams, with one set up as DPS and one as heal mules. I guess it could happen where on one team you have two ships just running around soaking up damage and healing each other the whole time to max out on heal accolades. But you see stuff like that in PvP now, because people pursue all sorts of daft and annoying tactics.

Fundamentally people are going to screw around no matter what the rules are, if that's what they came there to do. But for legit PvPers, even if they are tuning a build to max out on damage or max out on healing (allies), it's hard to see how that's not going to directly translate into winning more matches (unless they're just being ****ers and tuning their escort for healing when they're the designated burst damage ship for the team). It's exactly what they should be doing already (again, assuming they're playing some legitimate role to start with).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
03-26-2011, 02:09 AM
Okay, so here's my take on "constructive" feedback on PVP.

Firstly, lets all agree to stop with the trash talk. I don't appreciate getting a message from a player saying " Don't - uck with me". If you're in a PVP Zone, prepare to be - ucked with. I've got a kid and if he can't play with me like I want him to, then there is something seriously wrong with this game.

Secondly, if it's in the game deal with it. I'm TOTALLY tired of people complainin of "over used powers". I read a post from Dstall in which he pretty much told us all to learn to play if we thought the klingons were "over powered". He went on to suggest that there were counters to everything the Klingons had in the game. Well, you can't have it both ways, sorry, but if one power, or another stops you dead in your tracks, LEARN TO PLAY. Find the counters BEFORE you cry nerf. If multiple players equip said powers and you get hit with multiple versions of said powers, from multiple players, deal with the fact that you've been owned, OR have your teammates heal you, or buff you, BEFORE you claim a power is "over used" or too powerful. You know, "learn to play", use "team work" and all that happy "horseshi-" you advise others to do when your faction is called "overpowered".

Thirdly, don't "-itch" about "pet spam" ESPECIALLY if you use it first. I've been in PLENTY of PVP situations, where my opponent used "pet spam" first, with all due haste to save their skin, no hesitation and with no restraint, only to get prissy when I dropped a few mines, or fighters in response.

Fourthly, If you gang bang, prepare to be gang banged in return. I've been dealt plenty, as I've spawned in Ker’rat, but when the numbers favor my side all of a sudden there's some "code" of fair play I'm not followin when it's YOUR turn.

If you argue with me on these points, fine argue away, BUT in all honesty, PVP will be broken, beyond all repair, until ALL sides get over themselves and deal with the realities of PVP. Just what are these realities? I'll spell it out for those among us that don't understand it. You can name your starship whatever you want, but giving it a totally bad assed name doesn't mean your're invincible. Neither does what faction you belong to. SOMETIMES, things are going to go your way and you will be victorious and sometimes you are going to get your ass kicked. Don't blame the powers, overuse, faction, or ship imbalance, that's just the way the dice falls. You aren't going to be victorious because you are a Klingon, any more than you can expect to be victorious because you have your favorite ship/character, weapons ect. If you are out flanked, out maneuvered, out dealt, deal with the fact that yes, even a klingon, or "U.S.S. Deathstar" or whatever damned fantasy you have dreamed up for yourself, will get a slap of reality when things are aligned just right against you.

Until then. I'm the average player, who's sick of the crap PVP's been all about lately and I won't be back until some of the "bullshi-" is through. Cry nerf, fine, the dev's cave and you win, but you also loose.
And you know what, I'm NOT alone. That's why PVP blows right now. Argue it away all you want, but you'll play it alone. All battle cloaked up and buffed to the max, complainin at every chance on the forums, because of a few mines, or this science skill, or that still has some relevance.

Funny, but talk about making STFs easier and you get a ton of messages sayin people want a challenge. But in PVP, if the other faction has a power that's less than half that of a STF boss and all of a sudden the cries for nerfs become deafening.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
03-26-2011, 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
My main concern is people will change their playstyles and setups to farm in PuG or "sanctioned" matches. I think it's most fun when people play to win and/or try a variety of setups.
It would be great if people changed their playstyles to maximize their damage and healing. No more Tac/Defiants that do half the damage of a healing cruiser in full aux mode, no more Eng/Cruisers with almost no healing at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
03-26-2011, 10:19 AM
I'm not trying to suggest DPS and Heals aren't important. However, there are many skills which aren't heals or do minimal dps which can win a match. Further when certain skills are applied could be impacted as well.

Take TBR as an example of a skill which could be effected. I've used it in PuG matches against groups chasing a teammate to try and by time and distance for the teammate to escape. This action does little to add to dps and zero healing, but it may save a death. I've also used TBR to push a healer away from a wounded ally, again little damage and no real benefit to my score. On the other hand, I could just save my TBR for NPC spam situations and pair it w/an Attack Pattern to max damage for scoreboard/emblem bonus.

Also, I could attack unhardened NPCs for max damage and ignore hardened player ships in the process.

I could heal NPCs instead of saving allies as the NPC may have lost more hull which would add more to my heals.

I could stop using Science skills which tackle/disable/cc/strip shields and are unlikely to deal any direct damage (PSW,GW,TB,TBR, Tach Beam, CPB, Tykens Rift, etc).

I could stop using Engineering skills like Eject Warp Plasma, Aceton Field, Boarding Party (not that i use this anyway) ...

For Tac skills things like Target Aux, Weapons, Engines may be left on the shelf.

Edit: In second paragraph refering to opponenent healer and his wounded ally. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50 Rage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03-26-2011, 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VengefulDjinn
Okay, so here's my take on "constructive" feedback on PVP.

Firstly, lets all agree to stop with the trash talk. I don't appreciate getting a message from a player saying " Don't - uck with me". If you're in a PVP Zone, prepare to be - ucked with. I've got a kid and if he can't play with me like I want him to, then there is something seriously wrong with this game.

Secondly, if it's in the game deal with it. I'm TOTALLY tired of people complainin of "over used powers". I read a post from Dstall in which he pretty much told us all to learn to play if we thought the klingons were "over powered". He went on to suggest that there were counters to everything the Klingons had in the game. Well, you can't have it both ways, sorry, but if one power, or another stops you dead in your tracks, LEARN TO PLAY. Find the counters BEFORE you cry nerf. If multiple players equip said powers and you get hit with multiple versions of said powers, from multiple players, deal with the fact that you've been owned, OR have your teammates heal you, or buff you, BEFORE you claim a power is "over used" or too powerful. You know, "learn to play", use "team work" and all that happy "horseshi-" you advise others to do when your faction is called "overpowered".

Thirdly, don't "-itch" about "pet spam" ESPECIALLY if you use it first. I've been in PLENTY of PVP situations, where my opponent used "pet spam" first, with all due haste to save their skin, no hesitation and with no restraint, only to get prissy when I dropped a few mines, or fighters in response.

Fourthly, If you gang bang, prepare to be gang banged in return. I've been dealt plenty, as I've spawned in Ker’rat, but when the numbers favor my side all of a sudden there's some "code" of fair play I'm not followin when it's YOUR turn.

If you argue with me on these points, fine argue away, BUT in all honesty, PVP will be broken, beyond all repair, until ALL sides get over themselves and deal with the realities of PVP. Just what are these realities? I'll spell it out for those among us that don't understand it. You can name your starship whatever you want, but giving it a totally bad assed name doesn't mean your're invincible. Neither does what faction you belong to. SOMETIMES, things are going to go your way and you will be victorious and sometimes you are going to get your ass kicked. Don't blame the powers, overuse, faction, or ship imbalance, that's just the way the dice falls. You aren't going to be victorious because you are a Klingon, any more than you can expect to be victorious because you have your favorite ship/character, weapons ect. If you are out flanked, out maneuvered, out dealt, deal with the fact that yes, even a klingon, or "U.S.S. Deathstar" or whatever damned fantasy you have dreamed up for yourself, will get a slap of reality when things are aligned just right against you.

Until then. I'm the average player, who's sick of the crap PVP's been all about lately and I won't be back until some of the "bullshi-" is through. Cry nerf, fine, the dev's cave and you win, but you also loose.
And you know what, I'm NOT alone. That's why PVP blows right now. Argue it away all you want, but you'll play it alone. All battle cloaked up and buffed to the max, complainin at every chance on the forums, because of a few mines, or this science skill, or that still has some relevance.

Funny, but talk about making STFs easier and you get a ton of messages sayin people want a challenge. But in PVP, if the other faction has a power that's less than half that of a STF boss and all of a sudden the cries for nerfs become deafening.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel? It's not healthy to keep all of that bottled up, lol.
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