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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
04-03-2011, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
Thanks for bringing absolutely no facts to the argument. Like I said, I do not care at all, aside from being able to run a secondary "fun" setup with the BRel, as the Orion Cruiser our team uses vastly outperforms the cloaked healer. Again, top tier PVP, the BRel still wouldnt be good enough in this state.
i cant imagine anyone EVER intended thefabled fire-while-cloaked ship to be used as a silent heaLling support ship invulnerable to attack and detection. The people who think that this is the problem with the brel are the ones with the serious misunderstanding.

The brel was a sci spam joke as originally released on tribble. Blame the people who sought to abuse this unintended mechanic for the flatout nerfs the brel has received.

Clearly any impartial observer would agree that the mechanics involving healing for this ship and the original heghta should not differ. IE: BEING healed should NOT reveal you. The debate over whether the brel can heal cloaked, should be revealed, or function "normally" when healing remains the only question.

These simple changes would eliminate majority of my personal complaints

-All healing, hazard emitters, aux to sif, extend shields, team skills should not function while the brel is cloaked(they dont on normal ships).
- Any of these cast on the brel should not reveal it (as they do not for other cloaked ships in sto)
-everything else with the brel stays thesame


end discussion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
04-03-2011, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beagles View Post
Its not broken at all. That kind of thinking (the "I wont actually think about it but ill claim its op") is what lead to its uselessness in the first place. Healing requires you to be close, if youre close you can easily be detected. Again, as Husanak said, no one would use it in fleet matches because its outputting no damage & can easily be detected and destroyed....all for very little benefit in the healing department over the Orion Cruiser (if any, considering less aux, lower ET, No extend shields, no shooting mines....overall less specialization).

EDIT: Aside from the above post in here, here are the points as to why it should not have been changed:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...hlight=B%27Rel
That's a very insightful post linked here, hope devs will take the time to read it when the time comes to revamp the B'Rel.
Sadly almost any debate about this topic almost instantly derails, typically Fed imply KDF gamers wanted an imbalanced ship capable to perfectly operate from under cloaking all the time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
04-03-2011, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
There are a couple of issues here, really. One is the fact that using various interactables, or getting messages, will drop any ship out of cloak. Sometimes this is desired behavior -- if you are doing the Deferi satellite repair daily, for instance, it makes sense that you must drop out of cloak to repair the satellite. Other times it does not make sense -- like when one of your BOffs does a flyover message that says "Enemy ships inbound!" Fixing it means being able to fix this on a case-by-case basis. That is a lot of interacts.
Why did the behavior change, I wonder?

Quote:
The other issue is that the B'rel specifically is supposed to have abilities that it can use while cloaked, that other ships cannot. So it needs to be able to function as intended, as a cloaked raider that can fire while cloaked without appearing, but we need to have a very, very cautious eye toward its use of other abilities under cloak, such as self-healing or healbotting other people on a team.
While I agree that this type of distinction might be optimal, I think just reducing the decloaking phase to a 3 second interval would suffice as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
04-03-2011, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heezdedjim
You seem to have an unusually keen interest in having it, considering how "useless" it would be. And if it's so pointless, then you won't miss not having it. Invisible healbot BoPs are not in the set of things that would make PvP "better," and nobody needs to think about that idea for long to realize that it is true.
Right because its a game and flying it as and ATTACK ship would be fun. Not being "Declocked" with NO SHIELD for 15 seconds when some goof ball pug decides to help you out with a HZ or Transfer shields. LoL

It doesn't seem your know the history on this one. This one issue almost cost Cryptic my sub when they released this broken ship. They put it on Tribble it wa their for a week. I played it as did many others. There was a handful of federation ONLY players that NEVER tested the brel or played against it on tribble that VERY strongly yelled about the cloaked heal bot idea. Those of us that did test it stated that it didn't work... we tried it on tribble... we got smoked for the reasons we already pointed out. It was a suicide mission, it was always SENSOR scan BOL dead... or CPB HY 3 Dead. It just plain would never work for that purpose in its old config.
Cryptic left it on tribble unbroken.... and without mentioning any changes put it on live. I spent my token on my toon that was going to play around with the brel and have some fun with it... and suprize I end up with a broken ship, quite honestly I have more fun taking a Tier 3 out for fun. Cryptic screwed us with the bait and switch... based on a BS argument about healbot concerns, mostly raised by people that never tested the ship. (I could be wrong and the crack team of Cryptic PvPers could have tested it internal and decided that the heal bot could be OP.... lol ok likely not)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
04-03-2011, 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
<waaaaaa!!!>
None of your concerns require that it be able to heal something else while cloaked. As the dev who looked into this explained, the fundamental problem is that the system doesn't know the diff between you doing something and something being done to you. If they can get that sorted, then sure, catching a heal from a teammate and healing yourself should not be a problem. Until then, everyone with a cloak is stuck with how it is because of broken underlying mechanics in the game. The problem you're crying about can't be fixed until the cloaking mechanic itself is fixed, and when it is fixed, there's no reason for any ship that is cloaked to be able to heal others while still cloaked. The alternative is allowing any ship that is cloaked to interact with anything in ANY way without decloaking. Between any interaction and no interaction, the way it is now is the least broken until they can make the system actually sort the interactions out in a reasonable way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
04-03-2011, 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heezdedjim
None of your concerns require that it be able to heal something else while cloaked. As the dev who looked into this explained, the fundamental problem is that the system doesn't know the diff between you doing something and something being done to you. If they can get that sorted, then sure, catching a heal from a teammate and healing yourself should not be a problem. Until then, everyone with a cloak is stuck with how it is because of broken underlying mechanics in the game. The problem you're crying about can't be fixed until the cloaking mechanic itself is fixed, and when it is fixed, there's no reason for any ship that is cloaked to be able to heal others while still cloaked. The alternative is allowing any ship that is cloaked to interact with anything in ANY way without decloaking. Between any interaction and no interaction, the way it is now is the least broken until they can make the system actually sort the interactions out in a reasonable way.
You still don't get it.... NO ONE cares if it can heal others while cloaked. Turn all healing off while cloaked for all I care. Its broken right now and not the way it was on tribble... ANY heals cast on you revel you for the duration of the heal. If you are flying a defiant say and a star cruiser passing by hits you with a hazard emmiters you are not visible for 15 seconds are you? well you are in a brel. The broken mechanic you speak of effects the brel not the other ships. Any other cloaked or MESed ship in the game is not Decloaked when there healed by others.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
04-03-2011, 12:55 PM
There's some good analysis here, so let's keep it polite, that way the forum GMs don't have to lock the thread.

I'm not necessarily saying that healbotting is a serious concern, just saying that before I recommend any changes to any powers I want to make sure to look at all the possible ramifications, rather than changing something and then discovering after the fact that it had unintended consequences.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
04-03-2011, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatricianVetinari
Maybe we can first fix general Klingon cloak so the darn thing doesn't tickle off every time one of my BOs talks, whispers, or otherwise looks at me funny. Can we finally get that fixed too, please?
We know what causes that but the fix for it is rather . . . extreme. Its implementation will need some time.
First let me say I re-read my post and realize it sounds more sarcastic/negative than I intended. Sorry for that. Still, it's a legit complaint. It's too bad it's such a hard nut to crack though. That's unfortunate to hear.

Still, your attention to the B'rel and PvP in general is greatly appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heezdedjim
...for what it's worth, this affects all ships in the game with cloak, not just the Klingon ones...
There are a couple of issues here, really. One is the fact that using various interactables, or getting messages, will drop any ship out of cloak. Sometimes this is desired behavior -- if you are doing the Deferi satellite repair daily, for instance, it makes sense that you must drop out of cloak to repair the satellite. Other times it does not make sense -- like when one of your BOffs does a flyover message that says "Enemy ships inbound!" Fixing it means being able to fix this on a case-by-case basis. That is a lot of interacts...
Yeah, but I shouldn't have to drop out of cloak when I'm given the option to repair... Can't you fix it so that I only uncloak when I click the repair button?

Of course, I'm with the other B'rel fans who think the B should stay cloaked pretty much always unless I actually order it uncloaked...

(In fact, I haven't bothered to buy it because I don't like it's limitations...)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
04-03-2011, 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatricianVetinari
First let me say I re-read my post and realize it sounds more sarcastic/negative than I intended. Sorry for that. Still, it's a legit complaint. It's too bad it's such a hard nut to crack though. That's unfortunate to hear.

Still, your attention to the B'rel and PvP in general is greatly appreciated!

Yeah, but I shouldn't have to drop out of cloak when I'm given the option to repair... Can't you fix it so that I only uncloak when I click the repair button?

Of course, I'm with the other B'rel fans who think the B should stay cloaked pretty much always unless I actually order it uncloaked...

(In fact, I haven't bothered to buy it because I don't like it's limitations...)
Maybe we should update the Atari store text to say "This B'rel can fire while cloaked, as seen in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country! (It cannot, however, do anything else and remain cloaked.)"

Kidding . . .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
04-03-2011, 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
There's some good analysis here, so let's keep it polite, that way the forum GMs don't have to lock the thread.

I'm not necessarily saying that healbotting is a serious concern, just saying that before I recommend any changes to any powers I want to make sure to look at all the possible ramifications, rather than changing something and then discovering after the fact that it had unintended consequences.
This is good advice. Of course we would hope that all the possible ramifications of all changes are looked at. It is my understanding that is why we test things on tribble. Which the brel was by some of us. I hope this advice is heeded in all game additions / changes.... I'm not sure that we have had a great track record so far with many additions / changes.

Thanks for the Response jheinig glad to know you are at least considering possible fixes.
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