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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-25-2011, 03:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilCell View Post
The flaw in your logic is that you assume that all planets have the same number of inhabitants. You also assume that every Federation citizen has a proclivity to join Starfleet. If you look at 21st century Earth, you find that not all nation-states have an equal number of citizens. Some counties are more introverted as far as interpersonal and international relations go.. I think there was even an article saying how the most common "face" on Earth today is male Han Chinese.

My point is that it is entirely reasonable for some species (like the Vulcans, Betazoids, Saurians) to be more likely to stay on the homeworld, while others(Humans, Andorians, Bajorans, Bolians after early TNG, and Trill after TNG), are more adveturous.
And the flaw there is that with over 150 planets and non-human races like the Andorians (I'd say especially Andorians), Bajorans, Bolians, Trill you mentioned it's over 50% humans, sometimes far more than that.
Especially officers are more likely to be humans, particularly captains.
Are those who actually join Starfleet less likely to get to the higher ranks because humans are "superior" officers?
And why is it that of those humans such a ridiclously high percentage is anglophone?
Does what we saw in the shows accurately represent how Starfleet is structured, with the humans at the top, Americans at the very top (remember Picard was the only non-American lead character of any Trek show), while most other species are there to serve as redshirts, or was this simply due to the imcompetence of the authors?
I think the two (more humans than non-humans, more Anglophones than others) are symptoms of the same problem.

Also how likely is it that the populaton of one in over 150 member planets would be the only one to join Starfleet in such large numbers?
Even if we assume humans have a higher tendency to breed like rabbits and populate colonies and also a higher one to go to Starfleet while allthe others are less reproductive and also less interested in joining Starfleet it's quite a stretch that this would counter a factor of 150:1.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-25-2011, 03:39 AM
The restrictions of making a TV series prevented a more diverse representation of Starfleet - in TOS because aliens serving with Humans was... hey, it were the segregated 60s - and in the modern series the couldn't put masks on every person to make them alien, I'd guess.

Nevertheless, there aren't any such problems in this game and even the novelverse features an increasingly diverse Starfleet (USS Titan - ca. 15% Human crew). The diversity of species in Starfleet is one of the things I love most about STO!

And yeah, the more races the better - I'd like to see the Aenar, Photonics, Androids, Talaxians.
In addition, more parts for AlienGen to create: Efrosians, Tiburons, Tagarans, Mintakans, Grazerites, Zakdorn, Zaldans,...

/My two cents
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-25-2011, 04:40 AM
It were budget reasons and storytelling (or audience-identification) reasons that most people we saw in Starfleet were humans.

But it seems to not mesh well with a society that stands for inclusion and against racism.

A compromise interpretation could be that Starfleet prefers to assign members to a crew of similar species, to avoid certain more technical drawbacks - stuff like different required climates for member species, different day/night cycles and so on. Trying to manage all these differences on one ship would be difficult and ineffecient.

There might be some canon evidence for this even - there are two mentions of all-vulcan crewed ships over the course of the show. In TOS, the USS Intrepid is lost with its all-Vulcan crewmen, and in DS9, Sisko engages a Vulcan Captain and his all-Vulcan crew in a baseball match.

Theoretically, the bridge officer random assignments could try to prefer crew members of the race of the Captain and the races of pre-existing bridge crew members.

---

What I would like to see overall would also be some non-humanoid aliens. Add a lot of customization options to the tech behind the Undine, and you could have one variation of non-humanoids (you might want to barr customization options that make them look Undine...)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-26-2011, 05:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
And the flaw there is that with over 150 planets and non-human races like the Andorians (I'd say especially Andorians), Bajorans, Bolians, Trill you mentioned it's over 50% humans, sometimes far more than that.
Especially officers are more likely to be humans, particularly captains.
Are those who actually join Starfleet less likely to get to the higher ranks because humans are "superior" officers?
And why is it that of those humans such a ridiclously high percentage is anglophone?
Does what we saw in the shows accurately represent how Starfleet is structured, with the humans at the top, Americans at the very top (remember Picard was the only non-American lead character of any Trek show), while most other species are there to serve as redshirts, or was this simply due to the imcompetence of the authors?
I think the two (more humans than non-humans, more Anglophones than others) are symptoms of the same problem.

Also how likely is it that the populaton of one in over 150 member planets would be the only one to join Starfleet in such large numbers?
Even if we assume humans have a higher tendency to breed like rabbits and populate colonies and also a higher one to go to Starfleet while allthe others are less reproductive and also less interested in joining Starfleet it's quite a stretch that this would counter a factor of 150:1.
You did not disprove my point. To further drive home my point, look at the makeup of UN Forces that get deployed in the world. Or how about the composition of NATO forces. In both cases, US personnel comprise the bulk of the manpower.
You still are making assumptions that just don't pan out. Some of those "humans" in the back ground may just be species that look human. The Ligonians, for example, have a culture similar to Africa, but they are NOT humans. It is possible that they may have joined, but Ligonian officers may end up classified as human by shere ignorance. I picked them out because their homeworld is NOT a Federation member planet at the time of the episode (Code of Honor-TNG).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-26-2011, 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilCell View Post
You did not disprove my point. To further drive home my point, look at the makeup of UN Forces that get deployed in the world. Or how about the composition of NATO forces. In both cases, US personnel comprise the bulk of the manpower.
You still are making assumptions that just don't pan out. Some of those "humans" in the back ground may just be species that look human. The Ligonians, for example, have a culture similar to Africa, but they are NOT humans. It is possible that they may have joined, but Ligonian officers may end up classified as human by shere ignorance. I picked them out because their homeworld is NOT a Federation member planet at the time of the episode (Code of Honor-TNG).
Well in fairness NATO is essentially a USA created run organisation with some help from other allies and also the USA is a lot larger than the other members so naturally they will contribute more.

As far as UN is concerned if you look at Africa and parts of Asia the bulk of the forces are not actually American but from other member states. In Trek Earth is not the largest Planet in the Federation (as far as I know) so it does not really equate with your comparison of the USA which is clearly much larger than its NATO counterparts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-26-2011, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilCell View Post
You did not disprove my point. To further drive home my point, look at the makeup of UN Forces that get deployed in the world. Or how about the composition of NATO forces. In both cases, US personnel comprise the bulk of the manpower.
Because they have a much larger military budget than other NATO-members.
Or many UN-member countries.
Also each NATO nation has its own military and makes contributions based on its capabilites.
For example the ability to actually deploy troops somewhere is extremely important.
In case of the Federation that is no longer a determining factor since the proportion of people joining Starfleet is not connetcted to budgetary contributions to Starfleet.
Also Starfleet is a unified military not an alliance of different national militaries.
In addition that Americans are having leading positions in NATO has another reason:
Supreme command of NATO is always an officer in the U.S. military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme...e_.28SACEUR.29

So they'd always have a leading position based on that simple fact.
I find it very unlikely that such a solution was taken with Starfleet Command that is must automatically be lead by humans.

So in what way does your UN/NATO analogy apply to this situation? I don't see how.
It would not explain why there are so many humans in any way and given the names of the human-looking Stafleet personnell we saw that actually had a name, it's unlikely they were Ligonians as you mentioned them for example.
Or is there a quota that limits the entry of members of a given species to Starfleet based on the amount of money that is given to Starfleet from the planet the applicant comes from?
That's a method more fitting the Ferengi, also how likely is it that under such conditions non-Federation members would be allowed to join Starfleet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilCell View Post
You still are making assumptions that just don't pan out. Some of those "humans" in the back ground may just be species that look human. The Ligonians, for example, have a culture similar to Africa, but they are NOT humans. It is possible that they may have joined, but Ligonian officers may end up classified as human by shere ignorance. I picked them out because their homeworld is NOT a Federation member planet at the time of the episode (Code of Honor-TNG).
Then we'd end up with an even more constructed explanation:
That there is an incredibe amount of species that look human and even have cultures and names so similar to humans they are absolutely indestinguishable.

Regarding the terracentrism in Star Trek that emphasizes the importance of humans in an even greater amount than previously mentioned, I'd like to add this:

In TNG "The Emissary" (the episode where the Enterprise is tasked with finding the Klingon "sleeper-cruiser" T'Ong) it is explicitly stated by the crew of the Enterprise that the T'Ong's crew is from a time when the Klingons were at war with humans even though the ship was launched in the late 23rd century.

In Star Trek Nemesis Riker states that Shinzon's attack on Earth would "Wipe out humanity, Cripple the Federation".

The Borg were not interested in assimilating the entire Federation or species with such impressive mental capacities as Vulcans, the only species they were interested in was Specie 5618.

This is what I was referring to regarding the human-focus of the authors.
And based on that "approach" to the Federation it is also equally unlikely that they would have even considered the possiblity that a large portion of the human-looking people we see in Starfleet are no humans, because appearently they could not think beyond our own solar system as far as Starfleet's personnel is concerned.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-26-2011, 10:19 AM
Wiping out Earth would not cripple the Federation, just as nuking D.C. would not cripple the US. There are plans in place to ensure continuity of government, the human expression "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" applies to a lot of things. Aside from the 150 member worlds there are also 3200 colonies, a hundred or more starbases and deepspace stations. The lose of Earth would have demoralized the feds but more than likely it would have made the federation go into full scale war with the romulans, see "sacrifice of angel" or the last episode of DS9 to really see a ****ed off starfleet. Shinzon only had one ship and was defeated by a single sovereign.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-26-2011, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondo80 View Post
Wiping out Earth would not cripple the Federation, just as nuking D.C. would not cripple the US. There are plans in place to ensure continuity of government, the human expression "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" applies to a lot of things. Aside from the 150 member worlds there are also 3200 colonies, a hundred or more starbases and deepspace stations. The lose of Earth would have demoralized the feds but more than likely it would have made the federation go into full scale war with the romulans, see "sacrifice of angel" or the last episode of DS9 to really see a ****ed off starfleet. Shinzon only had one ship and was defeated by a single sovereign.
Which is why that statement from Riker in Nemesis makes even less sense.
Even if Shinzon had managed to use his Thalaron weapon against Earth, it would have been far less devastating than the Hobus Nova was against Romulus.
But not because of Earth's importance (or lack thereof due to an intelligently structured gonvernment) but after a rather "annoyed" Starfleet had hunted Shinzon down, the planet could easily be "repopulated" (along with large amounts of transplaneted flora and fauna) with all available resources and facilites on the planet intact, as opposed to the Hobus incident where the planet blew up.
Isn't it sad that some lowly nerds on the internet can analyze the situation more clearly than some hihg profile folks who get paid for writing scripts that don't make sense because damatic presentation take precedence?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-26-2011, 08:44 PM
There is the "alien" option for making your own species, the character creator is incredible.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-26-2011, 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto_von_Bismarck View Post
Thats how it was in the shows?
Na i say, the uss intrepid was all vulcan, or 99% vulcan.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Int...%28NCC-1631%29


however I do agree that the majority of the npcs/crew on most ships should be human to reflect the shows, granted places like DS9 the bajorans should be more prominent along with other alien species...this also reflects the shows.
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