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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
04-10-2011, 10:06 AM
Just put it back to where it was pre patch, if you wanna do dps, bring an escort, it aint rocket science.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
04-10-2011, 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I got the advice to have the community agree on ae solution and then attempt to communicate this to the development team (specifically Salami_Inferno). The idea is that a consensus will combine a strong voice together with a strong and community-supported solution, hopefully making it easy to settle for a fix.

The primary challenge is to find a consensus solution. I know there are many ideas around. I will briefly talk about some and why they might not work due to technology or balancing reasons, and finally present a possible solution that should avoid such issues.
  • Bring back BFAW back to its pre-buff state. This should be easy to do, but it might not be done because the fundamental reason why BFAW was tweaked still applied - that version of BFAW was not strong enough to the design team.
  • Adjust the BFAW skill so that the secondary shots deal less damage, with the primary shot dealing 100 % damage, and the secondary shot damage increasing by rank, by similar percentages as Cannon Rapid Fire does. This approach might simply not be technically feasible. There seem to be no examples of abilities that allow such differing damage outputs.
  • Adjust the BFAW skill so that the secondary shots hit only NPCs. This approach might also fail due to technical limitations, the targeting system doesn't seem to differentiate between NPCs and PCs (a long-standing issue in our attempt to fight spam). Also, it would still hurt Carriers very hard.

The Solution To Discuss

So, my solution would be to not change the current BFAW base mechanics, but adjust its cooldown and thus uptime. Snix's cooldown category system was originally envisioned for Season 2 also as a tool to make developing and balancing new powers easier, and I think it can be used here. If a power feels too strong, increasing its recharge rate and the way it can be chained can fix it.

Beam Fire At Will - Current State (Category 1)
  1. Duration: 15 seconds
  2. Recharge: 30 seconds
  3. Global Cooldown: 20 seconds
This means over a duration of 40 seconds, the power can be used twice (provided the owner uses two instances of it) for a 75 % uptime with 5 second gaps between its use. The high uptime and the short gap makes it very hard to slip through. It is good to deal with spam, but it is also good to provide constant pressure, forcing healers to spend their resources on themselves instead of allies, and makes it impossible for cloaking vessels to "slip through", instead instantly exposing them to potentially massive damage from an enemy team while still in the unshielded decloaking phase. The uptime also means that just one BFAW focused ship in a team will probably be able to counter all occurances of Heavy Torpedoes.

Beam Fire At Will - Proposal (Category 4)
  • Duration: 15 seconds
  • Recharge: 60 seconds
  • Global Cooldown: 30 seconds
This means over a duration of 60 seconds, the power can be used twice (provided the owner uses two instances of it), for an 50 % uptime, but 15 second gaps between its uses. This lower uptime also provides us with a bigger gap between individual BFAW - enough to have time for the healer's to provide healing support, as well as the ability for cloaked vessels to decloak within range and mount an offense without getting struck instantly. It provies some time for "spam creation", but it will still deal with the most annoying form - mines - quickly and effectively, while pets can last longer. There is an opportunity to use Heavy Torpedoes like Tri-Cobalts unless a team really optimizes its timing and two or three ships cooperate for optimal coverage - but with such determination and coordination, the result seems reasonable.

The changes will naturally also affect PvE, but the power still provides a strong damage buff - but over time more in line with comparable powers like Cannon Rapid Fire or Beam Overload. It can still be very effectively used to gain aggro to allow a tanking ship to draw NPC attention.

This proposal is the only sensible one i have read so far. seconded for all that its worth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
04-10-2011, 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
This proposal is the only sensible one i have read so far. seconded for all that its worth.
Which part?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
04-10-2011, 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FurQue
Which part?
The proposal is the second in that post, making BFAW a Category 4 skill. The first variant is the current version. And the other ones are proposals I think might fail due to various other concerns, from technical limitations to further balance issues.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
04-10-2011, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The proposal is the second in that post, making BFAW a Category 4 skill. The first variant is the current version. And the other ones are proposals I think might fail due to various other concerns, from technical limitations to further balance issues.
Its not enough, fire at will should be just fire at anything you can see. Not give target A 100% then give any other targets another 100% split between them. It should just fire everywhere at 200% cycle with 75% damage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
04-10-2011, 11:04 AM
Bring back old FaW. It was fine.

I like the idea others have stated about limiting mine launchers to one mine per launch. Raise damage, and give them a high stealth value, and dispersal pattern can increase the number dropped.

Fix the original problem, don't break something to fix something.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
04-10-2011, 11:26 AM
I'm not really sure making FAW a category 4 power is an appropriate change. The fact is the power itself eclipses both CSV and CRF in their capabilities. Little of that has to do with the cooldown/uptime.

Why does it get damage buffing in line with CRF when its an AOE power? Why does it give you a full weapon arc of AOE when CSV does not, even within the very narrow dual cannon arc? Why does it do both of these things at the same time, and at a lower rank? Just changing the cooldown does not address those issues sufficiently in my opinion.


The more I consider it, the more I think it needs a hard damage reduction, and different functionality based on number of targets. Rather than doing bonus damage against a primary target, it should probably give reduced damage against your primary target unless its the only target.

I figure if you get multiple secondary targets, the primary target only gets 70%-90% of normal damage, while secondary targets get the bonus damage. If there is only one secondary target, then you get 100% damage against both. And if there is only a primary target, then you can give it a damage boost in line with CSV, not CRF. Then give it a slightly longer cooldown, or lower uptime.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
04-10-2011, 11:33 AM
Just changing the cool downs and slightly reducing the duration would be another HUGE mistake. Would it be in line with the changes they made to rapid fire and CSV yse. Should it happen yes.

Will it fix the current issue. NO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
04-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
I'm not really sure making FAW a category 4 power is an appropriate change. The fact is the power itself eclipses both CSV and CRF in their capabilities. Little of that has to do with the cooldown/uptime.
I think cooldowns affect the balance of a power a lot. THere are limits to what a cooldown can do, but I think it applies here.

If FAW beats CRF and CSV now, then it is because it provdes a higher damage buff with a better uptime evn then CRF and CSV. That poses a problem. The fact that it give sus a higher damage buff then CRF alone isn't an issue. Beam Overload or HIgh YIeld Torpedo also provide bigger damage buffs - but BO and HYT only affect a single shot, CRF affects multiple shots. BO and HYT uptime is lower.

It is okay if a power boost your damage output for even more then 100 % - as long as it does so only short and rarely. A bigger cooldown means there is more time to recover for the defending team, and it also means you are more likely to have a power ready to be used again to deal with the next instance.

0-15 Seconds: Hardening Optionsl ike EPtS and TSS are available over the entire duration, and you can use Engineering Teams, Aux2Sif or Science Teams to heal as well.
16-30 Seconds: No more BFAW, seocnd instances of Teams skills and Aux2Sif are available agian.
31-45 Seconds: All Team skills and Aux2Sif are ready, second instance of EPTS is also availalble. (Even if previous instance was subnuked, you have a good chance to be ready for a new spike. If two instances of TSS were available, they could be used now as well.
46-60 Seconds: All second instances of team skills and Aux2Sif are ready again, and TSS would also be ready unless a second copy was applied in the previous time frame.

A 15/30/60 Duration/CD/GCD combination gives us a rotation of heals useable against the BFAW team spike every time. Any Healer probalby knows how important these rotations are to survive enemy damage. The Category 4 BFAW works excatly with that.

The current BFAW cooldowns are less compatible with that, and there are more times (better uptime) were heals are not avaialble.
0-15 Seconds: As Before
16-30 Seconds: As Before, but 10 of these seconds you have to withstand against increased damage from BFAW. This is basically the moment where you really feel the intense pressure of BFAW - you're getting overwhelmed.
31-45 Seconds: BFAW is on for 5 seeconds only, you have a small amount of time to catch your breath, but...
46-60 Seconds: You are again facing BFAW. Overall you had to deal with 15 seconds more of BFAW until now - no wonder you feel overwhelmed and are taking losses.

Potential issue I currently see with this approach is that people could choose not to run Beam Fire At Will but Beam Overload in the 16-30 second time frame. THat would mean a "spikey pressure" of BFAw followed by a BO spike. Hmm.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
04-10-2011, 03:22 PM
The main issue I have with the cool down changes... are;

1) Cryptic will consider it fixed and leave it alone.

2) Once again it is taking the EASY way out of an issue instead of addressing it.

3) Cryptic will consider it fixed and leave it alone.

4) Consider the changes too the Rapid Fire and CSV cool downs... many people didn't even notice till it was pointed out to them. I seriously doubt 5 seconds less of up time will make much of a change to FAW usage.

5) Cryptic will consider it fixed and leave it alone.

LOL

OK you get the idea I do not think it is in our best interest to concide that a simple change to up time is going to fix such a broken mechanic. The mechanic needs changed, not the amount of time we have to deal with it.

Fixing the Up time should be part of the FAW repair... but its not the meat of the issue. IMHO anyway.
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