Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 The Spam Paradox
04-11-2011, 11:29 PM
I'm speaking in regard to NPC/object spam specifically. Which came first? Who really started it?

I didn't get into PVP until late but here is my, admittedly limited, recollection of the general time line. I thought that spam was the Federation's answer to breaking the cloaking advantage. Eventually Carriers got fixed and the spam became a big deal. Admittedly, the lack of functioning tab targeting that ignored NPCs was terribly frustrating. So of course Carriers get nerfed back, right or wrong, at the same time that the people in charge decide to provide free spam generators for everyone(hurray!). Now to "fix" spam in a quick and dirty way they've effectively broken it for everyone but that's a topic for discussion in twenty other threads around here.

I'm sure I missed some details but that's the beauty of the forums: Discussion! So who did start the fire? Or has it always been burning since the world's been turning?

Personally, I blame the Federation for making the Klinks their scapegoat but who knows, I've been wrong before.
Lt. Commander
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# 2
04-12-2011, 01:24 AM
I think science and healing are to blame. Back when we had pure healers with full power to aux, there was no point in using energy weapon in the rear slots and the low turn rate of the star cruiser means that torpedoes are not that great too. So the logical answer was mines. Not because it is a great idea, but because it is better than nothing. And the situation is similar for science ships with full aux.

And then we had escorts with DBBs which meant that turrets in the back were too costly BO-wise, so... mines!
Lt. Commander
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# 3
04-12-2011, 01:26 AM
Hmmm, like all escalation, there's probably a little blame to be laid at both sides' feet...

Spam 'may' have started as an attempt to mitigate the effects of the Klingon's cloaking advantage, but it rapidly became prevalent, once high-level teams began to realize how lethal that it became, when utilized in combination with other, more devastating powers (things like Scramble Sensors 3 jump out, most apparently).

Once these teams demonstrated the effectiveness of such a strategy, the Klingons, with access to the spam generating capability of Carriers (especially in the 'Golden Age of the Carrier'), thanks to fighters and, to a lesser extent, BoPs, took it to the next level, combining the Science capabilities of the Carrier with their inherent spam generation, which was only further countered by increased amounts of a-spam-ination by Fed teams....

Which leads us to the current quandary with the effected 'fix' for spam, in the form of the grossly over-powered Beam: Fire At Will At Everything And Its Cousin... Spam mitigation is good... But the implementation of the 'fix' left a great deal to be desired, and has created an arguably greater problem than the issue that it was intended to correct.

Just my 2 EC,
-Big Red
Lt. Commander
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# 4
04-12-2011, 05:16 AM
I just don't think the overpowered version of BFAW is necessary to deal with the spam. But it lead to more people using BFAW then before, and that's what is killing all mines, Tri-Cobalts, Heavy Plasma Torps and Pets now. The old BFAW used with that frequency could have done the same thing, but people wanted to do more then kill spam, so they picked other alternatives. Now, they kill peoplespam.
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# 5
04-12-2011, 06:03 AM
Mine Spam had been here since the beginning of PvP.

Yep Fed had been the ones to first use it in the Fedball Tactic to make it harder for Klingons to focus their Alphas. Klingons used Carrier Spam and severall Battlecruisers had also Mine launchers equipped.

Once CSV came into play when GoD and later the other Klingons used it the Mine Spam came to a halt since it was not really usefull anymore.

And untill recently we had the well known next era of Mine spam used by booth sides.

So basichly it is used more or less since the beginning with short breaks in between when heavy AOE damage skills mitigate the spam.

Im sure there will be another time when heavy spam is a problem again.
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# 6
04-12-2011, 06:07 AM
Mines and Photonic fleet to clutter the field of battle has been here since almost day one.
It used to be fairly common place to enter a pug match and see the fedball spouting mines and summoning holographic ships. It culminated in the Carrier when it arrived on the scene and thats when the real (fed) complaints started coming in to control pet spam.
Lt. Commander
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# 7
04-13-2011, 05:00 PM
The day I really started noticing it: 1 Carrier launching waves of To'DuJ fighters, Photonics and Fleet Support, Breen Transphasic torps, and DP:Alpha 2 boosted Chrono mines.
Lt. Commander
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# 8
04-13-2011, 05:30 PM
It doesn't really matter who started it or how; it just needs to be gone.

I've never seen a game where calling NPCs to fight for you worked for PvP. Either the pets are too easy to ignore, so the pet class is at a disadvantage, or the pets are a threat on their own so you lose the PvP element. Either way, pets are just bad for MMOs that feature PvP.

It really upsets me that for months Cryptic dealt with the spam issue by giving everyone even more pets.

The mine spam is a bit easier to deal with since any hit destroys mines, but it fits the Star Trek universe even less than fighters do. Mines exist in Star Trek, but they tend to be very powerful static defenses rather than something a warship spits out ever 30 seconds.

THe thing that most bothers me with mines is that the sole purpose behind them is to clutter up targeting. That's kind of cheesy and breaks the games immersion since there's no way a weapons officer couldn't tell the difference between a space ship and a mine.
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# 9
04-13-2011, 05:45 PM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedJedi
Hmmm, like all escalation, there's probably a little blame to be laid at both sides' feet...
True.

Quote:
Spam 'may' have started as an attempt to mitigate the effects of the Klingon's cloaking advantage
Mines detect vessels even through cloaks. Laying or spaming them is/was a justifiable method of detecting the dreaded BoP and other nasty KDF cloakers.

I still say increase Aceton Field to help counter the BFAW issue. Possibly even revist FBP a bit.

Or better yet, give the Vov carrier its buffing back and let it balance out the rampant use of BFAW. I figure that the rate that FAW kills spam is almost equal to a buffed carriers out put of pets.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 10
04-14-2011, 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom
I think science and healing are to blame. Back when we had pure healers with full power to aux, there was no point in using energy weapon in the rear slots and the low turn rate of the star cruiser means that torpedoes are not that great too. So the logical answer was mines. Not because it is a great idea, but because it is better than nothing. And the situation is similar for science ships with full aux.

And then we had escorts with DBBs which meant that turrets in the back were too costly BO-wise, so... mines!
that's the reason why i use mines on some ships. and as far as i remember, the big whining about spam started after the change of the default dispersal. before the change, mines were in a small cluster and now they spread widely.
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