Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
04-14-2011, 08:05 AM
Wow, that's some Creative Use of Capitalization you got going on there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar_Searcher
I personally am not a programmer, and do not claim to know all there is to know about what the total depth of the problem is. I have however worked hand in hand with more than one Programmer who has made Mods for Similar Games to this, without the Greater Depth that this game has. This game has much more Depth that the one I worked with.
I'm not sure why the depth (or "Depth," as you put it) of the game has to do with any of this. Complexity, perhaps, but not depth. Now, I suppose it's possible that you're attributing some additional meaning to the words you capitalized beyond their usual definition. If so, that meaning is opaque.

The STO devs (or DEV's, in your usage) are not "modding" the game. It's their game. They developed it. They should have full access to the code base. Fixing bugs in the code is not comparable to modding. As a modder, depending on the game engine you're working with, the most difficult programming challenge is usually trying to work around (or, for many games, just trying to understand) the limitations of the engine. That really shouldn't be an issue for the Cryptic devs.

Quote:
One of those Programmers created a Mod for the game that literally contained Hundreds and Hundreds of Pages of Code. I worked for several months searching for Bugs in that Mod, and found many. For each Bug, Every Single Line of those Hundreds of Pages of Code had to be gone over to find some simple thing. Often it might just be a "Period" (.) put in a line where it should not be. The simplest things can be the hardest to find, and therefore fix.
Now, you say you're not a programmer but then go on to say that you spent several months "working hand-in-hand" with developers searching for bugs in a mod that you didn't write. Leaving aside the question of why the developers would hire a non-programmer to debug their code, let me say that, having spent better than 20 years as a programmer, often fixing other peoples' code, I can fully understand the difficulties involved. However, if you had to go through "Every Single Line of those Hundreds of Pages of Code" for each fix, it was very poorly written code. Or, rather, poorly structured code. I can only hope and pray that STO is better designed and that the people doing code QA are programmers.

Quote:
As has been stated by DEV's there are some working on Bugs, and some on new development. Both can be done at the same time. Hopefully, Future Bugs can be Caught on Tribble, and Not Brought to Holodeck. Eventually, I believe that if we can be patient, they will all get fixed.
Great! That's wonderful news! I wasn't suggesting that there weren't people working on fixes. My point was that they should probably be allocating more assets to fixing problems since their current commitment is, quite evidently, inadequate.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
04-14-2011, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnhtp View Post
Wow, that's some Creative Use of Capitalization you got going on there...



I'm not sure why the depth (or "Depth," as you put it) of the game has to do with any of this. Complexity, perhaps, but not depth. Now, I suppose it's possible that you're attributing some additional meaning to the words you capitalized beyond their usual definition. If so, that meaning is opaque.

The STO devs (or DEV's, in your usage) are not "modding" the game. It's their game. They developed it. They should have full access to the code base. Fixing bugs in the code is not comparable to modding. As a modder, depending on the game engine you're working with, the most difficult programming challenge is usually trying to work around (or, for many games, just trying to understand) the limitations of the engine. That really shouldn't be an issue for the Cryptic devs.



Now, you say you're not a programmer but then go on to say that you spent several months "working hand-in-hand" with developers searching for bugs in a mod that you didn't write. Leaving aside the question of why the developers would hire a non-programmer to debug their code, let me say that, having spent better than 20 years as a programmer, often fixing other peoples' code, I can fully understand the difficulties involved. However, if you had to go through "Every Single Line of those Hundreds of Pages of Code" for each fix, it was very poorly written code. Or, rather, poorly structured code. I can only hope and pray that STO is better designed and that the people doing code QA are programmers.



Great! That's wonderful news! I wasn't suggesting that there weren't people working on fixes. My point was that they should probably be allocating more assets to fixing problems since their current commitment is, quite evidently, inadequate.
First of all, it is not necessary for you to try and pick any and all Faulty Details out of the Post.

You are right, Complexity would be a better choice word than Depth. Thus showing the Depth of my Vocabulary.

It would be very similar for Cryptic in many ways as I see it. If they arrange for an Anomaly to be at "Given Location X", and then build Maps and such to go in those areas, they may set a Ground area Higher than the Anomaly. Problem created. Now find the source of the problem. Is the anomaly too low, or is the ground too high? With the many Anomalies in game, which one is involved there? What are the New conditions that have been generated around it?

True Cryptic DEV's do have the base code, but there are probably Thousands of pages of code for a specific Bug to hide in rather than the Hundreds in the other game I worked in. It still has to be found before it can get fixed. many Players in here throw up their hands, and complain, but offer no Mission Details, or Map Locations where they found the issue, and that stops the repair process DEAD. People need to understand and Over Come that.

Finally, No, I am Not a Programmer. I Have Tinkered with some game Code here and there. Searching for Bugs involved Playing the game and making Detailed Reports to Programmers, Where I was, What I was doing when issues sprang up. What Equipment was used, and things that could bring some Ideas to the Programmers as to where the problem might be. Map Issue, Ship, Weapon, Shields or what ever.

To your last point of ....., You may be correct, they may need to shift some workers around to other areas of greater need per customer view point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
04-14-2011, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by opzulu View Post
Instead of giving us more and more new content can we get all that time and effort put into bug fixes? We have a lot of bugs as it is, with more content there will be re-balancing issues of new items and more content means more bugs on top of whats already in game and the mountain gets a little bigger.

Can we get a streamlined finished product before you add more bells and whistles?
They did that for Season 3 - the result? The cry of: "Hey, I thought these Season updates were supposed to be content orienrted..." - so in the end, no matter what they do, some group won't be happpy. Also, if you've played a few MMOs, MMOs NEVER manage to fix all the bugs (Hell, WoW still has a few large ones that have been there since it's launch 6 1/2 years ago.)

So, honestly, the Devs are danmed either way, and given taht, I'd rather see content additions (the game still REALLY needs it); and let them fix the buga as they can. I don't think I've encountered all that many bugs lately, and most of the big ones are related to ground combat, which is getting an overhaul/upgrade in the upcoming Season 4 update.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
04-14-2011, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
They did that for Season 3 - the result? The cry of: "Hey, I thought these Season updates were supposed to be content orienrted..." - so in the end, no matter what they do, some group won't be happpy. Also, if you've played a few MMOs, MMOs NEVER manage to fix all the bugs (Hell, WoW still has a few large ones that have been there since it's launch 6 1/2 years ago.)

So, honestly, the Devs are danmed either way, and given taht, I'd rather see content additions (the game still REALLY needs it); and let them fix the buga as they can. I don't think I've encountered all that many bugs lately, and most of the big ones are related to ground combat, which is getting an overhaul/upgrade in the upcoming Season 4 update.
AMEN to that!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25 Lol
04-14-2011, 12:11 PM
One thing they do not do is things fast. Do ont even play STO as my main MMO anymore. Check back from time to time. I want to the crew update but will not be wating online for it to happen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
04-14-2011, 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeves
One thing they do not do is things fast. Do ont even play STO as my main MMO anymore. Check back from time to time. I want to the crew update but will not be wating online for it to happen.
Come back when you can. Happy to have you around.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
04-14-2011, 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar_Searcher
First of all, it is not necessary for you to try and pick any and all Faulty Details out of the Post.
I wasn't. I was Simply making an Observation regarding the Unusual (for English) use of Capitalization in your post. Randomly capitalizing Words Is distracting And detracts From your Point. Just saying.

Quote:
You are right, Complexity would be a better choice word than Depth. Thus showing the Depth of my Vocabulary.
And, it would seem, your mastery of the [COLOR] tag.

Quote:
It would be very similar for Cryptic in many ways as I see it. If they arrange for an Anomaly to be at "Given Location X", and then build Maps and such to go in those areas, they may set a Ground area Higher than the Anomaly. Problem created. Now find the source of the problem. Is the anomaly too low, or is the ground too high? With the many Anomalies in game, which one is involved there? What are the New conditions that have been generated around it?
If, as you suggest, each mission is lovingly hand-coded in the manner you describe, that would be an example of "poor structure." The location of anomalies, for example, should not be hidden within code that draws the terrain for each and every mission. That is data and should be treated as such. If the mods you've worked on had data embedded in the code, then I'm not surprised by your confusion. That type of thing is a rookie mistake and an archetypical example of Bad Programming™.

In the case of STO, however, it does seem like they've done the Right Thing™ and separated code from data. From the weird behavior I've seen, it looks like the location of anomalies are randomly generated (probably within various constraints) then the terrain attempts to conform to that location -- with varying degrees of success. That would explain why we have anomalies located on top of land "spikes" and in weird depressions. It also looks like there is an intermittent bug that sometimes causes the land to "overshoot" the location and create an inaccessible point.

Now, if I were debugging the code, and if my assumptions about its structure are correct (yeah, that's a big "if"), then we have drastically cut down on the areas of the code we should be looking in. We simply have to locate the section of code that controls the terrain adjustment (and perhaps the part that interprets the anomaly location coordinates) and begin looking there. What we wouldn't have had to do is parse "every single line [of] hundreds of pages of code." In fact, given the choice, I would change the code to have the location of the anomaly adjust to conform to the terrain (with appropriate bounds checking) in order to simplify things. But that's me.

Quote:
True Cryptic DEV's do have the base code, but there are probably Thousands of pages of code for a specific Bug to hide in rather than the Hundreds in the other game I worked in. It still has to be found before it can get fixed. many Players in here throw up their hands, and complain, but offer no Mission Details, or Map Locations where they found the issue, and that stops the repair process DEAD. People need to understand and Over Come that.
Yes, almost certainly there are thousands of pages. But I'm sure that, with a minimal amount of consideration by someone familiar with the structure of the software, we could whittle that down to a mere few pages. Not thousands, not hundreds, just a few pages.

As for not providing relevant details in bug reports, yeah, that's a problem. Of course, if they'd ever bother to fix their in-game bug reporting system (or, if it does in fact work, bother to look at the reports), then those details would be much easier to capture. It is unforgivable that they would include a reporting utility in the game and either fail to make sure it works or ignore the reports. If the Cryptic devs aren't getting the detail they need, they have nobody to blame but themselves. It may sound harsh, but that's simply the way these things work.

Quote:
Finally, No, I am Not a Programmer. I Have Tinkered with some game Code here and there. Searching for Bugs involved Playing the game and making Detailed Reports to Programmers, Where I was, What I was doing when issues sprang up. What Equipment was used, and things that could bring some Ideas to the Programmers as to where the problem might be. Map Issue, Ship, Weapon, Shields or what ever.
Yes, that's normally called "testing" or "QA." Every project methodology has its own way of handling such things, but it generally doesn't require the tester to look at the actual code. Whoever you worked for must have implemented a methodology I'm not familiar with.

Quote:
To your last point of ....., You may be correct, they may need to shift some workers around to other areas of greater need per customer view point.
Thanks!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
04-15-2011, 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnhtp View Post
I wasn't. I was Simply making an Observation regarding the Unusual (for English) use of Capitalization in your post. Randomly capitalizing Words Is distracting And detracts From your Point. Just saying.



And, it would seem, your mastery of the [COLOR] tag.



If, as you suggest, each mission is lovingly hand-coded in the manner you describe, that would be an example of "poor structure." The location of anomalies, for example, should not be hidden within code that draws the terrain for each and every mission. That is data and should be treated as such. If the mods you've worked on had data embedded in the code, then I'm not surprised by your confusion. That type of thing is a rookie mistake and an archetypical example of Bad Programming™.

In the case of STO, however, it does seem like they've done the Right Thing™ and separated code from data. From the weird behavior I've seen, it looks like the location of anomalies are randomly generated (probably within various constraints) then the terrain attempts to conform to that location -- with varying degrees of success. That would explain why we have anomalies located on top of land "spikes" and in weird depressions. It also looks like there is an intermittent bug that sometimes causes the land to "overshoot" the location and create an inaccessible point.

Now, if I were debugging the code, and if my assumptions about its structure are correct (yeah, that's a big "if"), then we have drastically cut down on the areas of the code we should be looking in. We simply have to locate the section of code that controls the terrain adjustment (and perhaps the part that interprets the anomaly location coordinates) and begin looking there. What we wouldn't have had to do is parse "every single line [of] hundreds of pages of code." In fact, given the choice, I would change the code to have the location of the anomaly adjust to conform to the terrain (with appropriate bounds checking) in order to simplify things. But that's me.



Yes, almost certainly there are thousands of pages. But I'm sure that, with a minimal amount of consideration by someone familiar with the structure of the software, we could whittle that down to a mere few pages. Not thousands, not hundreds, just a few pages.

As for not providing relevant details in bug reports, yeah, that's a problem. Of course, if they'd ever bother to fix their in-game bug reporting system (or, if it does in fact work, bother to look at the reports), then those details would be much easier to capture. It is unforgivable that they would include a reporting utility in the game and either fail to make sure it works or ignore the reports. If the Cryptic devs aren't getting the detail they need, they have nobody to blame but themselves. It may sound harsh, but that's simply the way these things work.



Yes, that's normally called "testing" or "QA." Every project methodology has its own way of handling such things, but it generally doesn't require the tester to look at the actual code. Whoever you worked for must have implemented a methodology I'm not familiar with.



Thanks!
At this point, I consider any further responses of this nature from you to be Harassment. Please Stop!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
04-15-2011, 07:10 AM
I'd like season 5 to be a bug bash and "fleshing-out" of current systems. Some fantastic ideas have been put in....then left as bare basic systems.

A good example of this is ship interiors. In the poll they did, we asked for functionality to be the key feature, yet here it is months later (was it released in May, so almost a year? Can't remember).....almost nothing to do on your ship.

Dabo prizes need some love.

The crew duty roster sounds great, yet I get the feeling it will be a great start....then left alone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
04-15-2011, 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solar_Searcher
At this point, I consider any further responses of this nature from you to be Harassment. Please Stop!
Wow... really? That's unfortunate. I thought I was being quite civil. Still, if you feel that strongly, feel free to report me. Good luck with that.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:01 AM.