Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 91 This
04-17-2011, 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennjahn View Post
In the dust up over emblems we are ignoring the skills issue they pose. Please forgive me reposting my thoughts from tribble over there to here

So I have to do three full missions with a 18-20 hour cooldown for half the exp of what you can get for the defari daily or certain other "short" official Cryptic missions w/ a 30 minute cooldowns? Not to mention the slightly exp as the 10 minute or less pair of rescue defari missions? How are you selling me on the foundry again?

I realize you are bumping into a problem, make the exp too big and too frequent and it runs into folks creating "hit the button to win" missions, and them slapping those buttons like a slot machine or skinner box rat. This setup as it is currently, sets those "in win" missions up to be the favorite ones.

How is that, you say?

Here's the problem. The "good" missions are by their very nature, going to be longer than the mini grindfest, button mashing style micromission. So you run into the problem that this system, as you currently have set up on on tribble, penalized quality lengthy missions over short burst missions.

As you currently have it, I have the choice of playing three feature-length in-depth missions, for half the exp for one official cryptic missions, or finding three quickie length "mash button and win" missions so one can bang out their share of exp for the afternoon, before moving on to grinding captives rescues and wheel spinning.

The way the foundry will be most successful is if it is set up so that a user can go from zero to level cap in the same length of time it would take average player to do so playing official content. I've already taken two characters to level cap and I have four more to go. I've run into some familiar faces enough time that its beginning to get dull. "Oh hi again fake admiral! Stop some romulan weapons? You don't say!"

In the case of Klingon players, with their drought of content from zero-to cap, having this limited reward / time lag, I suspect it will negatively polarize their base.

"Hey guys, there's new missions out there to cover the gaps, and you'll never need to grind again."
"Yay missions, thank you thank you thank you, we love you."
"Oh an FYI. You'll need to play three times as many missions as the federation to get to cap though, but hey no grinding! kiluvubai"
"Rage!"

As I see it you have a choice of upping the exp, lowering the cooldown, reducing the number of needed missions, or a mixture of all three. Even if you dropped the mission to every 4 hours with 350ish exp, that would work. How about a 2 hour cooldown? If you establish a timer in such a way that by the time you finished an intensive hour plus set of missions you can get more missions for credit I would be satisfied.

Or if this wrapper is a hard limit, then you need to step up and find the good foundry missions, in the haystack and promote them to some sort of special status with enhanced exp. Another option, make a meta wrapper where if you do enough of these "play three" foundries you get a meta exp reward--10x wapper missions gets you a special set, or 1k exp.

I know "a great story is its own reward," but knowing that earning a reward is also a sought after outcome.

You need to sweeten the pot here, Cryptic, else the quick and easy crap will drive out the good effort-taking gold.

Some additional thoughts on emblems. I would like emblems but I can see not putting them in for basic repeatable foundry missions. After all if you can complete a 3 emblem wrapper mission in ten minute via a Button Masher "I win" micromission, they totally will. Give the players a target and they'll rush to it like Kazon to a secondary command processor.*koff*The fountain*koff*
I would support them selecting certain mission for spotlight missions, packaging them in an emblem wrapper mission with cool down. If they could find at minimum 21 missions, you'd be looking at 7 solid days of emblem content with no repeats. Find 90, and you have a month of content, no grinding. That's something I will support.
This has a lot of merit and well thought out ideas. Whether its Cryptic individually rewarding the best missions or making a wrapper that updates hourly or so, we need a better levelling path than we have now, and we're wasting the great potential of the Foundry.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 92
04-17-2011, 04:44 PM
It's still an important consideration that, even if doing the foundry missions are not explicitly mandatory, adding an emblem reward would adjust how an individual perceives the cost vs the benefit of doing them. A change to the system may not affect the ultimate decision of everyone, however, the marginal impact still deserves to be considered.

Examples to try and express my point:

Person A does not want to do Foundry missions, and currently does not. An emblem reward is added to the daily as proposed. The benefits of doing the foundry missions (emblem) now outweigh the cost of running foundry missions and now Person A is running the foundry missions.

Person B does not want to do Foundry missions, and currently does not. An emblem reward is added to the daily as proposed. The benefits of doing the foundry missions is still less than the costs and Person B still does not run the foundry mission.

Person C does want to run Foundry missions, and currently does. An emblem reward is added to the daily as proposed. The benefits of doing foundry missions is even more greater than the costs of doing so than before, and person C continues running foundry missions.

Person D does want to run Foundry missions, but currently does not as the benefits for doing them are not as great as the costs (in this case, likely an opportunity cost of emblems not earned through other means). An emblem reward is added to the daily as proposed. The benefits of doing foundry missions are now greater than the costs and Person D now runs foundry missions.

I gather from his post on the front page that CedricO is like Person A. Many of the replies directed toward him have encouraged him to be like Person B, which I personally believe is an inappropriate response to his concerns. An analysis on whether to add emblems to the reward needs to consider Person A as much as it considers Persons B, C, and D.

Personally, I do slightly lean toward implementing the emblem reward as I believe the value of supporting Person D is greater than the negative effect on Person A, but I also would want to see improvements to the system for locating quality player generated content that would give a reason for some of the people who inherently don't want to run foundry missions to change their minds without relying on a material reward, such as emblems.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 93
04-17-2011, 05:05 PM
I have no idea why you guys are arguing but here is what I think:

The devs should come up with a way that we can get tangible rewards in the form of Emblems or some other resource (crafting materials?) that can be used as we see fit for our own characters.

I think this could blossom into something grand in fact. It doesn't just have to be Emblems...but it NEEDS to be something worth the time invested for both the Foundry mission CREATOR and the Foundry mission PLAYER.

Peace!

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 94
04-17-2011, 05:20 PM
I agree that there needs to be Emblems for this Daily.

However, due to there starting to be too much dailies in STO, might I suggest this be an altnerative for PvP Dailies? Meaning either you do Foundry Dailies or PvP Dailies.

Or perhaps the Foundry can supplement Exploration Dailies that instead of doing Dailies all the time in B'Tran or Azlesa, Foundry missions and Exploration Dailies could go hand-in-hand, where you can do dailies in any Exploration cluster, and those dailies count toward your accolade count. That way you have a reason to go to the older Exploration clusters without feeling like your doing it just for the accolade credit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 95
04-17-2011, 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathcube View Post
It's still an important consideration that, even if doing the foundry missions are not explicitly mandatory, adding an emblem reward would adjust how an individual perceives the cost vs the benefit of doing them. A change to the system may not affect the ultimate decision of everyone, however, the marginal impact still deserves to be considered.

Examples to try and express my point:

Person A does not want to do Foundry missions, and currently does not. An emblem reward is added to the daily as proposed. The benefits of doing the foundry missions (emblem) now outweigh the cost of running foundry missions and now Person A is running the foundry missions.

Person B does not want to do Foundry missions, and currently does not. An emblem reward is added to the daily as proposed. The benefits of doing the foundry missions is still less than the costs and Person B still does not run the foundry mission.

Person C does want to run Foundry missions, and currently does. An emblem reward is added to the daily as proposed. The benefits of doing foundry missions is even more greater than the costs of doing so than before, and person C continues running foundry missions.

Person D does want to run Foundry missions, but currently does not as the benefits for doing them are not as great as the costs (in this case, likely an opportunity cost of emblems not earned through other means). An emblem reward is added to the daily as proposed. The benefits of doing foundry missions are now greater than the costs and Person D now runs foundry missions.

I gather from his post on the front page that CedricO is like Person A. Many of the replies directed toward him have encouraged him to be like Person B, which I personally believe is an inappropriate response to his concerns. An analysis on whether to add emblems to the reward needs to consider Person A as much as it considers Persons B, C, and D.

Personally, I do slightly lean toward implementing the emblem reward as I believe the value of supporting Person D is greater than the negative effect on Person A, but I also would want to see improvements to the system for locating quality player generated content that would give a reason for some of the people who inherently don't want to run foundry missions to change their minds without relying on a material reward, such as emblems.

I feel sorry that you took the time to write all that out, because in the end your logic doesnt even make sense. Even IF the Foundry daily had emblem rewards, there are plenty of other ways to get emblems. So if a person A) wants emblems and B) doesnt want to do Foundry missions, then they still have plenty of other ways to get emblems without feeling pressured to do Foundry missions. That is what your post fails to acknowledge, and that is why your argument doesnt make sense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 96
04-17-2011, 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
I feel sorry that you took the time to write all that out, because in the end your logic doesnt even make sense. Even IF the Foundry daily had emblem rewards, there are plenty of other ways to get emblems. So if a person A) wants emblems and B) doesnt want to do Foundry missions, then they still have plenty of other ways to get emblems without feeling pressured to do Foundry missions. That is what your post fails to acknowledge, and that is why your argument doesnt make sense.
My post is based under the assumptions that 1) the daily foundry mission is more efficient (rewards more emblems per playtime) than the repeatable B'Tran cluster mission and 2) the players have more than enough time available to complete every time restricted daily. Even if my second assumption was wrong, as you suggest (which, while I can understand that it certainly doesn't apply to everyone, it assuredly does apply to some), if the foundry daily was among the most efficient dailies, it would still apply the same pressure.

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem behind the disagreement on this issue is more a problem with emblems being applied as rewards to too great a number of dailies. With a great majority of the activities available awarding emblems it goes from 'What can I do if I want to earn earn emblems?' to "What should I avoid if I want to earn emblems?"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 97
04-17-2011, 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathcube View Post
My post is based under the assumptions that 1) the daily foundry mission is more efficient (rewards more emblems per playtime) than the repeatable B'Tran cluster mission and 2) the players have more than enough time available to complete every time restricted daily. Even if my second assumption was wrong, as you suggest (which, while I can understand that it certainly doesn't apply to everyone, it assuredly does apply to some), if the foundry daily was among the most efficient dailies, it would still apply the same pressure.

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem behind the disagreement on this issue is more a problem with emblems being applied as rewards to too great a number of dailies. With a great majority of the activities available awarding emblems it goes from 'What can I do if I want to earn earn emblems?' to "What should I avoid if I want to earn emblems?"
Um, I promise that the B'Tran would be more efficient. The foundry missions are all over the place game wise and are usually quite a bit more in depth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 98
04-17-2011, 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathcube View Post
My post is based under the assumptions that 1) the daily foundry mission is more efficient (rewards more emblems per playtime) than the repeatable B'Tran cluster mission and 2) the players have more than enough time available to complete every time restricted daily. Even if my second assumption was wrong, as you suggest (which, while I can understand that it certainly doesn't apply to everyone, it assuredly does apply to some), if the foundry daily was among the most efficient dailies, it would still apply the same pressure.

I'm beginning to wonder if the problem behind the disagreement on this issue is more a problem with emblems being applied as rewards to too great a number of dailies. With a great majority of the activities available awarding emblems it goes from 'What can I do if I want to earn earn emblems?' to "What should I avoid if I want to earn emblems?"
Short of the creation of 2 min missions with no other purpose then exploiting the wrapper, Which is technically possible but very unlikely to hold up to any kind of review. Good UGC missions seem to run around 30-60 mins. Normal difficulty B'tran can knocked out in 15 mins. It is highly unlikely UGC will replace B'tran as the most efficient emblem source. It also easy to insure it cannot by just making the cool down on the wrapper mission more then 12 hours.

As to emblams being on to many quests this basically irrelevant as well. You could spend your whole day do missions that gave some number of emblams as rewards, and releasticly its not huge advantage compared to the hours put in. You can only gear out one ship so much. Even if you did manage to get an All Efficient Saurian crew on fully epiced out cruiser you still wouldn't have much of an advantage over any other epiced out ship. So its just question of time vs Reward.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 99
04-17-2011, 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathcube View Post
My post is based under the assumptions that 1) the daily foundry mission is more efficient (rewards more emblems per playtime) than the repeatable B'Tran cluster mission...
Except we're talking about a Daily, something that can only be done once. And they aren't going to be comparable.

B'Tran's 3 Emblem Daily can be stacked with the standard charting mission which earns you 1 for 4 Emblems (more than the typical reward) and can be easily completed in under a half-hour. On top of that the charting mission can be repeated every half hour for an extra Emblem, meaning that you can earn that typical 3 Emblem reward continuously every 1.5 hours. Meaning you can earn a grand total of 51 Emblems in B'Tran alone in a 24 hour period if you work your ass off.

You can't do that with a 3 Emblem Foundry wrapper mission that is a once a day deal. You just can't.

Fact is, if you need Emblems you have an outlet in B'tran. It's always there. A Foundry Daily wouldn't be, just once a day.

And if the idea is that these things need to be comparable for people who don't like a certain option, then by that thinking the Foundry missions MUST have an Emblem-based Daily, and a mission recurring every half-hour for one in order to placate those folks who don't like grinding out the same B'tran missions every five minutes and shouldn't feel forced into doing them because of the Emblems attached to them... right? This train of thought either runs both ways, or it doesn't run at all...

... and obviously it doesn't run. The train jumped the tracks and exploded somewhere and methinks some folks are just in denial about that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 100
04-17-2011, 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Except we're talking about a Daily, something that can only be done once. And they aren't going to be comparable.
Except, they are. Say that with B'Tran cluster repeatable mission, you can complete it within 30 minutes each time, thus giving you 1 emblem every half hour. If, as a hypothetical, the Foundry daily gave 3 emblems, then it would need to take an hour and a half or more to not be a superior choice to the repeatable mission for those looking to maximize emblem gain.

If you ran 4 hours of B'Tran, you could earn 8 emblems. If you could exploit the hypothetical foundry daily for 3 emblems in half an hour (again, hypothetically), you could then run 3 and a half hours of B'Tran for a 7 more emblems, a total of 10 emblems in those 4 hours. This is how they are comparable.

Finally, as to the value of emblems, they are also valuable as a means of acquiring ships which could otherwise be purchased in the C-store for cash. As such, a collector with an eye toward acquiring those ships would take into account the relative value between time and money in deciding whether to acquire the ships via C-store or via emblems.
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