Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
04-17-2011, 10:12 PM
Agree with the Nagus.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
04-17-2011, 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathcube View Post
Except, they are.
Unless you can get 51 Emblems from the Foundry wrapper in a 24 hour period... they aren't.

Can you? No? Then they aren't.

And since the argument you make is that they should be equitable then you must be able to. Yet you can't. So if I don't want to run B'tran to gain my 51 Emblems in 24 hours, well, I have no choice. I am forced to because nowhere else will net you that in one day.

Meanwhile, if you want THREE Emblems and you don't like the Foundry you can pick them up in B'Tran, PvP, the Series zones, the Sorties, some Fleet Actions, or some STFs.

Your argument is just... it's a non-argument. And it's entirely one-sided in it's approach. Go find the train. It's wreckage dude.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
04-17-2011, 10:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Unless you can get 51 Emblems from the Foundry wrapper in a 24 hour period... they aren't.
You're setting up a false dichotomy between running B'Tran 48 times and running the hypothetical foundry daily once. What is important here is not the absolute gain in emblems, but the rate of emblems over time. Going back to my hypothetical Foundry daily with 3 emblems in 30 minutes and keeping your 24 hours power grind session, you could earn 51 emblems strictly with B'Tran, or 53 emblems by substituting one half hour B'Tran with one half hour hypothetical exploited foundry daily. This is the same point I was making in my last post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathcube View Post
Personally, I do slightly lean toward implementing the emblem reward...
... and am NOT arguing against the addition of emblems to this daily, however I do think there are issues that should be considered before doing as such.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 104
04-17-2011, 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHappyJoyJoy View Post
Now add in the fact that a lot of people have alts. I've got six characters, four of them are capped and another is fast approaching. Ain't a shot in Hades I'd be running every single Emblem-sporting mission in the game and doing it every day on my characters. I'd have to forfeit my life and live exclusively in STO.
Hmm... That's an interestnig thought.

But seriously - I definitely don't run every Emblem mission. Even 3 5 minute clickies could be too much. I mostly do my PvP mission - and then keep PvPing. That's what I like.

Some new Foundry missions with a story... Hmm. I might actually use the Foundry more. It's sad I don't do it now, because I am pretty enthusiastic about the Foundry and love the very idea and the editor and the possibilities. But if I see people asking in Fleet Chat for teams or inviting people to PvP teams... I can't say no.

But if you want to avoid the 3 5 minute clickie issue - Reward people for spending half an hour or 1 hour in Foundry content and completing one Foundry mission per day in your Daily.

The only way to game this would be to sit in one 5 minute clickie mission and wait until you click for 1 hour. Maybe some people will do that. But I doubt it.
Lt. Commander
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# 105
04-17-2011, 11:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I agree that there needs to be Emblems for this Daily.

However, due to there starting to be too much dailies in STO, might I suggest this be an altnerative for PvP Dailies? Meaning either you do Foundry Dailies or PvP Dailies.

Or perhaps the Foundry can supplement Exploration Dailies that instead of doing Dailies all the time in B'Tran or Azlesa, Foundry missions and Exploration Dailies could go hand-in-hand, where you can do dailies in any Exploration cluster, and those dailies count toward your accolade count. That way you have a reason to go to the older Exploration clusters without feeling like your doing it just for the accolade credit.
Everyone has his pet favored type of daily to do. I wouldn't tie it to something specific. The only way to make this work sensibly is to have a cap. whatever you can earn today (maybe everything minus the Exploration 1 Emblem Grind mission that can be repeated over and over) is the cap.

Maybe Cryptic can't pull this off, technically speaking. At least not yet at least. Then they should get working on it soon.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 106
04-17-2011, 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathcube View Post
You're setting up a false dichotomy between running B'Tran 48 times and running the hypothetical foundry daily once. What is important here is not the absolute gain in emblems, but the rate of emblems over time.
Efficiency isn't the be-all end-all. Sorry, but no. There are other factors to look at. And in the end efficiency is almost irrelevant despite your claims that it is paramount. If you look at the game, it pretty much has to be.

If you're completing the Foundry Wrapper doing quick dummy missions in rapid succession (assuming this is even possible, and safeguards against it aren't implemented) then you are still only getting three emblems which can be obtained from numerous other sources easily. That's all you could ever get per day from a Foundry wrapper mission. Period. Full stop.

Now, simple question: if you hate Foundry missions... can you get them elsewhere?

The answer is; Yes.

It's three Emblems, you have options for three.

Now, another simple question: If you hate B'Tran and love Foundry missions, can you gain the same number of Emblems that you can in B'Tran from the potential Foundry wrapper?

The answer is; No.

You don't have options for the number given by B'Tran... thus throwing the idea of equating sources out the window. Once you've completed the dailies if you want more Emblems you are literally forced into B'Tran, as in, it's not just the most efficient way to gain them at that point, it's the only way.

If your argument is that sources should be equal... well, they aren't. And they have never been.

If you're looking to maximize you might want to do things you might not enjoy (you are *not* forced to, not even in the broadest interpretation of that word that is even somewhat truthful) regardless of Emblems being added to the Foundry because everyone will eventually be forced to B'Tran and not everyone likes it. So that idea falls apart right there. I see no reason that The Foundry should be overlooked because of some not liking it when nothing else has undergone the same treatment.

As far as basing everything directly on efficiency goes, well, that falls apart just as quickly. Might it be slightly easier to grab Emblems via the Foundry? Maybe. But that's irrelevant. It literally can't be a matter of any worth since the ability to obtain Emblems from the various sources already in the game aren't 100% equal in efficiency. It's not even close actually.

In order for your argument about efficiency to hold water then all sources for Emblems in the game now have to be equal. An STF Daily takes longer than a B'Tran run (often a LOT longer). While you can stack the B'Tran Daily for 4 Emblems the STF Daily will only ever get you 3, which means fewer Emblems for more time and more work. So if efficiency is the crux of the matter than everything is already shattered to pieces. Game over. No point in crying over spilt milk and worrying that A is more efficient than B because that disparity already exists.

Hell, I can gain my first four Emblems from B'Tran faster than I can gain three from the Breen trio of missions. I get 1 faster in the Breen hostage rescue mission than I can running the typical Charting of B'Tran.

Most would welcome those options despite the disparity, and not view it as a mandate to do only one and not the other.

I can do all of them. Or I can do the ones I like. And if I don't like the options then I have alternatives from even the ones listed above, including PvP and Fleet Actions, and those still have different rates for three solitary Emblems.

So yeah, your argument doesn't fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
But seriously - I definitely don't run every Emblem mission. Even 3 5 minute clickies could be too much. I mostly do my PvP mission - and then keep PvPing. That's what I like.

Some new Foundry missions with a story... Hmm. I might actually use the Foundry more. It's sad I don't do it now, because I am pretty enthusiastic about the Foundry and love the very idea and the editor and the possibilities.
And that's kinda it. I don't have a lot of time to spend on this game alone, and I don't like the current state of PvP. I was okay with it around launch, but some of the shifts and elements have driven me away. That means with no Emblems in Foundry missions I get a choice:

Do I want to grind the same old boring trash missions for Emblems and advance my character?

Or do I want to take a shot at the missions in the Foundry and maybe be entertained for a bit?

Let me tell you, that's a crappy choice. I've been waiting on Emblems for Foundry missions so I can perhaps be entertained and advance my character at the same time (novel idea I know...). So yeah, this is something that should be in the game. PvPers, as stands, can have their fun and earn Emblems. Typical PvEers who don't specifically coo over mindless grind have an option of Emblems or Fun, but not both.

Hey, I liked the Exploration missions and the Breen and Dividian Dailies, but you know what? Do them more than a thousand times and the shine rubs off something fierce.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
04-18-2011, 05:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathcube View Post
My post is based under the assumptions that 1) the daily foundry mission is more efficient (rewards more emblems per playtime) than the repeatable B'Tran cluster mission and 2) the players have more than enough time available to complete every time restricted daily.
I hate to break it to you, but baseless assumptions arent a valid counter argument. I can say "well I assume your assumption is wrong", and then we just have two conflicting baseless assumptions. But I'm not going to do that. I'm basing my arguments on what we know right now, and am quickly going to shoot down any argument based on unfounded assumptions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
04-18-2011, 06:26 AM
Summary:
  • Individual Missions:
    • No emblems on individual missions
    • Soft floor and ceiling caps to individual mission SP/merits (i.e. no less than X, no more than y, and base it on z playtime).
  • Daily Wrapper:
    • Increase Daily SP
    • Add Emblems to daily
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
04-18-2011, 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Summary:
  • Individual Missions:
    • No emblems on individual missions
    • Soft floor and ceiling caps to individual mission SP/merits (i.e. no less than X, no more than y, and base it on z playtime).
  • Daily Wrapper:
    • Increase Daily SP
    • Add Emblems to daily
I'll never get why this is a bad idea to some people here.

HappyHappyJoyJoy said it best. The mismatch in efficiency for emblems is ALREADY PRESENT, since B'Tran is the most efficient way to get emblems (and still will be). Unless you already have a problem with it, adding an Emblem to a Foundry daily isn't going to change anything to cause a mismatch.

Also, it requires that people make some super-easy, one-kill missions in order to even come close to being more efficient for those emblems. If there aren't safeguards in place to prevent such, it would only prove to me that the Foundry wasn't well thought-out, and was not worth putting in in the first place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
04-18-2011, 07:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedidethfreak View Post
Also, it requires that people make some super-easy, one-kill missions in order to even come close to being more efficient for those emblems. If there aren't safeguards in place to prevent such, it would only prove to me that the Foundry wasn't well thought-out, and was not worth putting in in the first place.
And if that would be a problem, then the solution isnt to not include emblems, but to address that issue.
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