Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-24-2011, 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leirus
<snip>
3. Lastly there are missions were you just kill hundreds of enemies. I don't even mean grind missions, but story-driven missions. Is there an accolade for the player called "Cramped Claw"? Which is what I get after a while there, hitting space over and over again. e.g. it IS fun to see my BIG Klingon cruiser or the carrier kill off federation frigates in the dozens. Point well made: I own them. Now, two groups of frigates are enough to prove that point. Do I really need to defeat 11(!) frigate groups, just to enter a training facility at the end of the world? Is it then really protected by the dozens of security officers? Is it so hard to build in ways to evade them? All I want is to get out a prisoner, my mission states...

In short: Scale wisely for a good story mission. Make it appropriate to mission. If it feels more "realistic", it feels more Trek.
That depends... If there are other friendly ships helping you take down those 11 frigate spawns in an epic fleet vs. fleet battle then it could potentially be beneficial to the story and still make sense However I do agree that being asked to take out 11 frigate spawns on your own would be far too much and can get very tedious; Such an example could definately kill a storyline and immersion. Of course, I agree that there probably isn't warrant for 11 frigate spawns in your example story anyway So, yes, in most cases less is more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-24-2011, 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leirus
Is there an accolade for the player called "Cramped Claw"? Which is what I get after a while there, hitting space over and over again.
People are still hitting space over and over again since Cryptic added the ability to set all your weapons on autofire?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-24-2011, 07:56 PM
I couldn't agree more. I often feel like there should be no enemies left after all the ships and troops we've killed levelling up. The same thing hold for foundry missions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-25-2011, 07:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
A quick comment on combat, specifically the number of NPCs you fight either on ground or in space. Aside from the obvious implication that our characters are supposed to be some kind of uber hero, it is not realistic that we should be able to defeat entire squadrons of ships or soldiers with our single ship or away team.

If you want to have a big battle, thats fine. But for it to be realistic you have to have friendly NPCs helping the player. If having friendly NPCs helping the player doesnt make sense for the story of the mission, then neither does having a huge battle. As uber as Kirk or Picard were, they never defeated entire armies by themselves.

That is all
I definitely understand your point of view...

So my question is, what would be the best way of challenging a player? In my missions I try to put in some optional enemy encounters in to give players who like to push themselves a little something. I think most people could take 2 mobs down just by using their BOs on normal, and with higher difficulty settings bugged the only way to challenge someone is to increase enemy count. We've seen Cryptic do this with the STFs, I remember Terradome spawning so many enemies they literally would pile up 2-3 layers deep.

Taking down 6-7 mobs is definitely not for everyone. I would never make that a mission objective, however personally I enjoy a good fight despite the fact it may not be "realistic" in scope.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-25-2011, 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trueheart
I definitely understand your point of view...

So my question is, what would be the best way of challenging a player? In my missions I try to put in some optional enemy encounters in to give players who like to push themselves a little something. I think most people could take 2 mobs down just by using their BOs on normal, and with higher difficulty settings bugged the only way to challenge someone is to increase enemy count. We've seen Cryptic do this with the STFs, I remember Terradome spawning so many enemies they literally would pile up 2-3 layers deep.

Taking down 6-7 mobs is definitely not for everyone. I would never make that a mission objective, however personally I enjoy a good fight despite the fact it may not be "realistic" in scope.
I think optional combat is a great solution. But lets be honest; combat in this game really isnt "challenging", its just time consuming. People often think the more more enemies they put in their mission the more "challenging" it is, but it isnt. It just makes the mission longer to play. The only time is "challenging" is if it is poorly designed and enemies spawn right on top of each other.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-25-2011, 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
I think optional combat is a great solution. But lets be honest; combat in this game really isnt "challenging", its just time consuming. People often think the more more enemies they put in their mission the more "challenging" it is, but it isnt. It just makes the mission longer to play. The only time is "challenging" is if it is poorly designed and enemies spawn right on top of each other.
If I could better customize the behavior of my enemies, I'd remove some of the mobs. But right now the mobs stay, though I will keep them spread out enough to allow a little bit of a break in the action.

Also, unless facing a ground mob advances the story, I generally make them all optional. (The lone exception to that rule is in my "Build a City" mission. But even then engaging the mobs serves a purpose: making the player tour the city.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
I think optional combat is a great solution. But lets be honest; combat in this game really isnt "challenging", its just time consuming. People often think the more more enemies they put in their mission the more "challenging" it is, but it isnt. It just makes the mission longer to play. The only time is "challenging" is if it is poorly designed and enemies spawn right on top of each other.
I'll admit more enemies doesn't create this radically different experience, it basically just adds time to the mission. However, it can make the difference between having to stop and consider what's ahead instead of blindly running into a room.

In my most recent mission there's a spot where you can either pull the enemy groups (there's around 5-6, only 3 required) one at a time back into a hall and take them out there, you can "blowout a plasma conduit" which tosses up some invisible walls so you can avoid most of them or sprint into the room guns blazing, aggro everything and end up being surrounded. It's not really about "challenge" but more of a means of trying to provide a reason for a player to stop and consider their actions.

And then there's also a sealed room filled with Borg and a hidden base in space for those who like between 6-10 enemy groups. Both require a player to intentionally engage them but since I like those kinds of fights, I feel obligated to put them in even if it's just for me
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-25-2011, 11:46 AM
Essentially, some are putting in mobs as a replacement for plot and that's where the mistakes are made. The Foundry is an excellent tool that allows players to express their creativity, but it is limited. The only thing you have complete control over is your story. If you create a compelling narrative and the plot calls for multiple spawns, it can add to the story rather than break it. If you're tossing in mobs because "that part of the map looked empty," then you'll find people quickly losing interest.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-25-2011, 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
It most certainly is, as everyone here is well aware. The question is, so you think the game should at least attempt to make sense or not? If not, then we might as well go ahead and introduce the Q faction
Make sense? Interesting. Do transporters make sense? Warp speed? Time travel into the past?

Yes, I know... you mean "within context." But the point is that it's a slippery slope if you are going to start making all encompassing statements and rules regarding all foundry missions. The key is, as always, story and the "suspension of disbelief."

Anyway, I was tired when I posted that, after a long, late night foundry session (I'm probably not the only one around here who knows that feeling ). I misread your post and saw it as a complaint against combat in general. Even now, I don't think that's really too far off from what you are saying.

Where I have the biggest problem is when people say things like "you have to have." If there is one sure way to make a creative writer rebel, it's by laying down the law and making rules. Rules, in the end, are just limitations on the creative process. For example, there are numerous examples of modern writers who deliberately break the rules of grammar. The key here, as it is in creating UGC content, is that if you are going to break the rules, you first have to know what the rules are and then, when you break them, do it very well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-25-2011, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
I think optional combat is a great solution. But lets be honest; combat in this game really isnt "challenging", its just time consuming. People often think the more more enemies they put in their mission the more "challenging" it is, but it isnt. It just makes the mission longer to play. The only time is "challenging" is if it is poorly designed and enemies spawn right on top of each other.
I try to pit player decisions AGAINST combat. So a thorough, clever or lucky player will end up fighting LESS.

I'm somewhat puzzled by the idea of giving the player the option to fight more. I'd think it's generally better to give them the option to fight less but make them work to find that option.
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