Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Combat: less is more
04-23-2011, 10:45 PM
A quick comment on combat, specifically the number of NPCs you fight either on ground or in space. Aside from the obvious implication that our characters are supposed to be some kind of uber hero, it is not realistic that we should be able to defeat entire squadrons of ships or soldiers with our single ship or away team.

If you want to have a big battle, thats fine. But for it to be realistic you have to have friendly NPCs helping the player. If having friendly NPCs helping the player doesnt make sense for the story of the mission, then neither does having a huge battle. As uber as Kirk or Picard were, they never defeated entire armies by themselves.

That is all
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-23-2011, 11:31 PM
I concur...which is why in one of my space battles it is a three-sided conflict. You're not getting mercilessly pounded, and the other two sides duke it out along with you and against you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-24-2011, 02:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
A quick comment on combat, specifically the number of NPCs you fight either on ground or in space. Aside from the obvious implication that our characters are supposed to be some kind of uber hero, it is not realistic that we should be able to defeat entire squadrons of ships or soldiers with our single ship or away team.

If you want to have a big battle, thats fine. But for it to be realistic you have to have friendly NPCs helping the player. If having friendly NPCs helping the player doesnt make sense for the story of the mission, then neither does having a huge battle. As uber as Kirk or Picard were, they never defeated entire armies by themselves.

That is all
A quick comment. This is a video game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-24-2011, 03:13 AM
Quote:
A quick comment on combat, specifically the number of NPCs you fight either on ground or in space. Aside from the obvious implication that our characters are supposed to be some kind of uber hero, it is not realistic that we should be able to defeat entire squadrons of ships or soldiers with our single ship or away team.

If you want to have a big battle, thats fine. But for it to be realistic you have to have friendly NPCs helping the player. If having friendly NPCs helping the player doesnt make sense for the story of the mission, then neither does having a huge battle. As uber as Kirk or Picard were, they never defeated entire armies by themselves.

That is all
It is tempting to go with more enemies in space at least, because otherwise it is a little... boring and easy, but I agree one has to be careful. On ground, it quickly becomes a tedious nightmare if there are too many enemies and too many fights.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-24-2011, 04:23 AM
Too many people feel the need to do multiple ambush waves, in general it adds nothing to the story that one encounter could have done, the over used ambush is not a fix for a weak story. Also every Borg encounter doesn't need to end in a cube or cubes. I recently had to kill a bunch of ferengi ships in a mission for no real reason because it didn't further the plot at all.

I'm mainly into the game for the space stuff, but I'm into UGC for your story, if your story is good you don't need 6 ambush waves
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-24-2011, 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorrowedTune
A quick comment. This is a video game.
And one that's better with missions that make sense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-24-2011, 05:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
A quick comment on combat, specifically the number of NPCs you fight either on ground or in space. Aside from the obvious implication that our characters are supposed to be some kind of uber hero, it is not realistic that we should be able to defeat entire squadrons of ships or soldiers with our single ship or away team.

If you want to have a big battle, thats fine. But for it to be realistic you have to have friendly NPCs helping the player. If having friendly NPCs helping the player doesnt make sense for the story of the mission, then neither does having a huge battle. As uber as Kirk or Picard were, they never defeated entire armies by themselves.

That is all
Also, placing four or five spawn groups in one tiny little circle so they all aggro at once and can only be defeated by whittling away one or two, dieing, then respawning and coming back to repeat it over and over and over again isn't clever, it's just mean.

If you want a climactic battle, use a big map and make the player fight through groups of enemies one after the other to get to the boss, not all at once, or as Nagus said, have a reason for there to be some help. Remember the climactic many-enemies battles in all the James Bond films; it was always Bond and three dozen SAS commandos, or US Navy Seals or US Marines Felix Leiter borrowed for the occasion. The ones where it's just Bond against 50 Spetznatz, he's running away the entire time and just blowing stuff up for distractions, and that's kinda hard to do with the current Foundry.

As long as your help is fighting the mooks, or helping the player fight the boss, not finishing off the boss themselves, and they've got a logical reason to be there (ideally one that the player made happen explicitly in the story), it's not a deus ex machina, it's just epic scale.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-24-2011, 06:34 AM
I think the amount of enemies and the challenge they pose should be fitting the story. Realism was thrown overboard by Cryptic itself, when they decided that almost 100% of even the earliest battles involve battleships from the other side which - through divine intervention? - you slay with impunity.
The songs they must still sing about the battles of my first Bird of Prey, probably manufactured from empty blood wine barrels against Typhoon battleships...

Good player made missions should correct this. This does not necessarily mean they have to spawn few enemies.

Three short examples:
1. There was a mission out there for the KDF were you supposedly invade Ferenginar. Ferenginar is defended by three smallish groups of ships (even on MG level...) which you of course kill quickly to move on. I'd assume there would be hundreds of ships and more warping in. Solution would be: Spawn these hundreds of ships. Introduce an element into the story, that your Intel found a major hole in their defense grids. The player(s) act as advance scouts, to get through to the planet. IF they get tangled up in combat they SHOULD lose. I know at least one mission that introduces optional impossible side missions, based on your decisions. Attack that Klingon fleet alone despite all warnings? Fine, die.

2. In one of my own missions, you first have to sabotage a defense station that'd otherwise blow your ships to pieces. You then give a signal to your own fleet, which warps in and relatively quickly, with your help of course, gets rid of the enemy spaceships. (How quick really depends on your level) The story states this is an surprise attack on an enemy that is weaker to begin with. Swift punishment. That's what you get. With the ground battles I gave the players the chance to either do it alone or warp in reinforcements at certain points.

3. Lastly there are missions were you just kill hundreds of enemies. I don't even mean grind missions, but story-driven missions. Is there an accolade for the player called "Cramped Claw"? Which is what I get after a while there, hitting space over and over again. e.g. it IS fun to see my BIG Klingon cruiser or the carrier kill off federation frigates in the dozens. Point well made: I own them. Now, two groups of frigates are enough to prove that point. Do I really need to defeat 11(!) frigate groups, just to enter a training facility at the end of the world? Is it then really protected by the dozens of security officers? Is it so hard to build in ways to evade them? All I want is to get out a prisoner, my mission states...

In short: Scale wisely for a good story mission. Make it appropriate to mission. If it feels more "realistic", it feels more Trek.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-24-2011, 08:09 AM
Less is more... more or less.

I agree and not to say "but"-- but, the scale mechanic of the Foundry right now makes it a chore to limit it... because sometimes I want just ONE enemy target to attack but depending on difficulty, rank or whatnot more than 1 spawns unless you have to deliberately remove the actors from the group and hide it in a corner... but then if it's a kill objective you can't do that.

As well, the game's main mechanic is combat so it's hard to not go through armies. In my career in the game I have probably killed FLEETS. Picard probably killed ships that can be counted on one hand (or something).

Anyway, it's a considerable balancing act. But as I said, I agree... more or less.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-24-2011, 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorrowedTune
A quick comment. This is a video game.
It most certainly is, as everyone here is well aware. The question is, so you think the game should at least attempt to make sense or not? If not, then we might as well go ahead and introduce the Q faction
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