Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 181
05-21-2011, 09:37 PM
Great, thanks for bumping a 3 day dead thread to agree >.<...

I have already listed canon-free arguments. Fed fighters do not need carriers as a base. Klinks are much more likely to.

IMO it is more reasonable to let feds call for help from nearby fighter NPCs (if there is a fed base in the sector block), but carriers are simply not needed.

ONCE AGAIN, LET IT FALL!!!

and in case the new*** tries the ohlolhypocriteyoujustbumpedmythread ****, posting to an active thread asking to stop posting really doesnt count...

EDIT: You and your nonarguments...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 182
05-21-2011, 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
How can you have a completely canon free argument against a Fed carrier in a fictional world defined by it's canon. I bet that is what you were relying on.

As stated Carriers make sense with the Klingons as their mythos supports such a suicidal mission. Wanna a sure fire trip to Sto'Vo'Kor? A fighter is a pretty easy way to die in combat. Feds are not quite that gung-ho.

So to make a Fed carrier viable you would need to use drones like a UCAV, but the Feds have no history of such a practice on screen. Logical leap yes, but unsupported by what we see on screen where the most work anything like a drone gets is a observation probe.
A canon free argument would be one that exclusively deals with game play and game experience. I've already briefly addressed why the current canon-based arguments against Federation Carriers are irrelevant. So, as an example, "Federation Carriers could hurt the Klingon Population" is a canon-free argument. I don't honestly think there's a horde of Klingon captains flying Carriers and wishing they could just join Starfleet again so I don't think it's much of a canon-free argument, but I am just giving an example.

A canon specific argument would be, "The Peregrine Fighter had too large of a **** pit to be considered a light fighter! Given it's origins as a courier ship it had it's own self contained warp core and so wouldn't even need a carrier" Sure, a valid canon argument but given the events of DS9 are years passed you can correct any of those issues without violating canon. "Star Fleet has far too much respect for life to use light fighter craft incapable of independent life support or even being lightly shielded." is another canon argument and one that you've come up with a perfectly reasonable explanation for.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 183
05-21-2011, 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipuvaepe
I have already listed canon-free arguments. Fed fighters do not need carriers as a base. Klinks are much more likely to.
That's actually a canon argument, not a canon-free argument. And it's easily dismissed by replacing the Peregrine with a wing of Peregrine Ultra-light remote controlled drones. Something well within the Federation's technical capabilities and in-line with their moral sensibilities.

Quote:
IMO it is more reasonable to let feds call for help from nearby fighter NPCs (if there is a fed base in the sector block), but carriers are simply not needed.

ONCE AGAIN, LET IT FALL!!!
That's nice, but it doesn't really add an interesting gameplay element does it?

And by the way, thanks for bumping this thread. I think there are some good arguments here both for and against Carriers and the more times you bump this thread, the more likely someone at Cryptic will read it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 184
05-21-2011, 11:37 PM
STO is not just your funtime. Federation and KDF are not sides with the same ships and the same tactics. Like it or not, what I said IS a argument that is supported not only with canon, but without.

It appears this is a troll thread, heres to the ****** getting a pban...
And no, I am not trying to be sneaky, using black text is in fact very obvious.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 185
05-21-2011, 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
A canon free argument would be one that exclusively deals with game play and game experience. I've already briefly addressed why the current canon-based arguments against Federation Carriers are irrelevant. So, as an example, "Federation Carriers could hurt the Klingon Population" is a canon-free argument. I don't honestly think there's a horde of Klingon captains flying Carriers and wishing they could just join Starfleet again so I don't think it's much of a canon-free argument, but I am just giving an example.

A canon specific argument would be, "The Peregrine Fighter had too large of a **** pit to be considered a light fighter! Given it's origins as a courier ship it had it's own self contained warp core and so wouldn't even need a carrier" Sure, a valid canon argument but given the events of DS9 are years passed you can correct any of those issues without violating canon. "Star Fleet has far too much respect for life to use light fighter craft incapable of independent life support or even being lightly shielded." is another canon argument and one that you've come up with a perfectly reasonable explanation for.
I cannot imagine that KDF carrier jocks don't play Fed because they cannot fly a carrier Fed side. Perhaps that is because I know a few KDF carrier jocks who do fly Fed because the Feds have more missions and more options. So on that point I have to agree with you.

Truth of the matter is only allowing non canon rebuttal based on game mechanics is not required. Look at the history of the game. At one point only the KDF had universal stations, (BoPs only but that was enough to get the Feds salivating). Enough Fed only players demand uni-stations and while I have not flown one I hear the Nova has an universal station. Rumor has it that new Fed ships will also feature universal stations as well. That is one less thing that makes the KDF unique.

Same thing with cloak. While all Fed ships do not feature cloak one escort and one cruiser has cloak. Oh and science ships have enough science slots that running Mask Energy Signature I or II does not cut into the high end science skills those ships have to offer at all. All of these ships are endgame ships and make for one less thing unique to the KDF.

One could argue that to take away the carrier and the KDF has nothing special to offer but less options, and while the KDF does enjoy some of the best fraction specific missions in the game there are less, much less missions to push forward a story for the KDF. All that would remain as an incentive to play the role of the Empire is the novelty of calling yourself KDF and three race specific ships that for some strange reason don't get flown all that often from what I have seen in game.

For another argument against Fed carriers...

Do remember that a lot of players are tired of the spam we currently have in the space portion of this game. This is an example of what I am talking about. It appears to be just a four to five person total Fed vs. Fed match and almost all of the brownish lettering designate mines. A single carrier could increase this by a third. Now imagine a Fed vs. Kling match where both sides field two cruisers and three carriers. The spam in the pic would be increased by about twelve times. No big deal for those who have 20mb connections on 2000 dollar computer rigs, but how many among us can afford to throw that kind of money at their gaming hobby?

So you just want it for PvE, most don't PvP anyways right? Still that is more stuff on the screen along with what ever spam the NPC opponents you are against drop. Think about it. Adding a fed cruiser tot eh game could require many among us to upgrade their PCs just to optimize our ability to earn emblems at end game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 186
05-22-2011, 12:23 AM
The Nova doesn't have a Uni slot. The nebula does.

If Feds get a carrier, KDF better get some sci ships and just more ships period. Think about how many ships come out, 1 KDF ship for 3 FED? Something like that.

At this point, the Carrier is just one inentive to play KDF. Add it to the FED and you might as well take KDF out of the game. The reason everyone complains about carriers is because you see so many of them. Many players will roll KDF just to fly a carrier.

Honestly, compared to the other ships of the Klingons, it isn't really that great. Few people fly the special KDF ships because they would rather spend their points on the FED side, where there is more to do and more options to the players on that side.

Besides, everyone complains now about spam lagging them out...why add another ship to that mix that 50% of the FED side would instantly fly and crash the servers?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 187
05-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staalker View Post
The Nova doesn't have a Uni slot. The nebula does.

If Feds get a carrier, KDF better get some sci ships and just more ships period. Think about how many ships come out, 1 KDF ship for 3 FED? Something like that.

At this point, the Carrier is just one inentive to play KDF. Add it to the FED and you might as well take KDF out of the game. The reason everyone complains about carriers is because you see so many of them. Many players will roll KDF just to fly a carrier.

Honestly, compared to the other ships of the Klingons, it isn't really that great. Few people fly the special KDF ships because they would rather spend their points on the FED side, where there is more to do and more options to the players on that side.

Besides, everyone complains now about spam lagging them out...why add another ship to that mix that 50% of the FED side would instantly fly and crash the servers?
Minor error, and thank you for the correction. Still the point stands, one more thing that made the KDF interesting mechanically has been given to the Feds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 188
05-22-2011, 04:16 AM
If both sides have carriers…
Remove Photonic Fleet from the game entirely and decrease the amount of mines to max 5.
Or keep Photonic Fleet, but remove mines from the game entirely.
I can count on 1 max 2 hands the amount of time in any of the shows mines were used.

Anyway it seems like Jermbot has now started a thread about wanting a Federation BoP…
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 189
05-22-2011, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
I cannot imagine that KDF carrier jocks don't play Fed because they cannot fly a carrier Fed side. Perhaps that is because I know a few KDF carrier jocks who do fly Fed because the Feds have more missions and more options. So on that point I have to agree with you.
Thank you, I know it's childish but I feel myself becoming more receptive to your arguments now that you've shown that you have read and understood mine. Objectively this makes no sense but we are social animals and in this text jungle of bile and flame, it makes you likeable.

Quote:
Truth of the matter is only allowing non canon rebuttal based on game mechanics is not required. Look at the history of the game. At one point only the KDF had universal stations, (BoPs only but that was enough to get the Feds salivating). Enough Fed only players demand uni-stations and while I have not flown one I hear the Nova has an universal station. Rumor has it that new Fed ships will also feature universal stations as well. That is one less thing that makes the KDF unique.
True, there is one Federation ship, available through the cash shop or extensive grinding, that has one universal lieutenant slot. I half suspect it was a bone to convince people that universal spots are not all they're cracked up to be since you really don't see the versatility benefit until you've gotten universal commanders and lieutenant commanders.

Quote:
Same thing with cloak. While all Fed ships do not feature cloak one escort and one cruiser has cloak. Oh and science ships have enough science slots that running Mask Energy Signature I or II does not cut into the high end science skills those ships have to offer at all. All of these ships are endgame ships and make for one less thing unique to the KDF.
True enough, if you want to play with a cloaking escort you need only grind to vice admiral through the multiple missions and events offered to the federation. A cloaking cruiser requires even more grinding or a cash shop purchase but either of these methods could be preferable to trying to grind a Klingon up to general with the amount of content originally available in this game.

Quote:
One could argue that to take away the carrier and the KDF has nothing special to offer but less options, and while the KDF does enjoy some of the best fraction specific missions in the game there are less, much less missions to push forward a story for the KDF. All that would remain as an incentive to play the role of the Empire is the novelty of calling yourself KDF and three race specific ships that for some strange reason don't get flown all that often from what I have seen in game.
And I've acknowledged that damage to the Klingon population is a possibility, though a remote one. Still, if that's the case Carrier's are a bandaid on a much larger problem. If you fix the underlying lack of content on the Klingon side of the game than they have enough of a unique feel to their available quests, races, and ship aesthetics to draw a population in their own right.

So at most I could see it being advisable only to hold off the options of a Federation Carrier and Bird of Prey until such a time as we have an equal population. I could even see the introduction of Klingon Science vessels immediately, again, as a bandaid while the real problem is addressed.

Quote:
For another argument against Fed carriers...

Do remember that a lot of players are tired of the spam we currently have in the space portion of this game. This is an example of what I am talking about. It appears to be just a four to five person total Fed vs. Fed match and almost all of the brownish lettering designate mines. A single carrier could increase this by a third. Now imagine a Fed vs. Kling match where both sides field two cruisers and three carriers. The spam in the pic would be increased by about twelve times. No big deal for those who have 20mb connections on 2000 dollar computer rigs, but how many among us can afford to throw that kind of money at their gaming hobby?

So you just want it for PvE, most don't PvP anyways right? Still that is more stuff on the screen along with what ever spam the NPC opponents you are against drop. Think about it. Adding a fed cruiser tot eh game could require many among us to upgrade their PCs just to optimize our ability to earn emblems at end game.
Lag, damn dirty lag. From everything I can tell you're right though. I don't like it but there you have it. Maybe eliminating photonic fleet would help, but that's penalizing every science officer in the game to accommodate Carrier pilots. Eliminating the size of minefields might be a good idea but they're already so ineffective that they're barely used and this would make them even less useful in a partially 3-dimensional field of play.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 53
# 190
12-06-2013, 06:10 PM
HAHA all of these ****** whiners and the feds ended up getting one anyway
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