Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
05-19-2011, 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheYak
This is true. I've seen several players effectively use hybrid damage/healing builds. Now if only they would tell me where they got their hax...
What I do is fairly simple:

TBR3 or FBP3 - Rest healing skills (*perhaps* dual TBR)

Tacs and Sci can do this pretty effectively, since they can debuff, run full aux and have full potential heals and damage.

Engs are more survivable, but cannot debuff really (FoMM / Scan)

I <3 my Tac RSV!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
05-19-2011, 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyMac View Post
Over powered skills are only suffered by those that lose. No one ever complains when their setup wins. (Okay, some do). If true balance were ever achieved, no match would ever end. The only way that everyone will be happy is if the Devs find a way for everyone to win all the time.
No, that is wrong. Rock, Paper and Scissors are balanced, but there is a clear end.

Some complaints we encounter regarind balance is just "but rock beats scissors, that's unfair": Those are not a problem.
Other complains are: But rock can beat both paper and scissors! That's a problem.

Of course things are more complex than just rock, paper, scissors. There are a lot more figures to consider (and there are also "figure groups" to consider). That is what makes the first and the second complaints so difficult to analyze and distinguish. And it will probalby make it impossible to find the perfect solution.

But the perfect solution is not that teams can never beat each other. In a game where you can't get healing, or at least your resources of healing are finite over the course of a game, someone has to lose in the end. The best case scenario is that the outcome is purely defined by player skill.

Requested Solutions close enough to perfect can include:
  • Two specific (different or identifical) team setups can never beat each other and are forever locked in a stalemate.
  • Two specific (different or identicial) team setups always favor one of them.
  • Two specific (different or identicial) team setups can end with a win or loss.
The important goal is:
  • There are no specific team setups that can reliable (or just most of the time) beat all team setups.

The goal doesn't have to be:
  • Every team setup works against some team setups. (It is okay if some are just too bad to work...)

And the goal should definitely not be:
  • All team setups lead to a stale mate.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
05-19-2011, 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheYak
This is true. I've seen several players effectively use hybrid damage/healing builds. Now if only they would tell me where they got their hax...

Extra Commander Boff Bug/Exploit

If you are lets say a healer and you could have another 4 Boff skills that do damage. Or you are a damage dealer and you could have 4 more skills for either CC/Debuffing or healing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
05-19-2011, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Dont you know that using SS3 and GW at the same time is spamming?

Its just like Tac captains (shame on me) is spamming Tac skills - I mean, Alpha3, GDF, FoMM, Beta3, CRF2, BOL3 and HYT1 All at the same time? Shame on Tac spammers!

This might be an appropiate responce when people complain of Scispamming
except i use charged burst 3 and wave 1..... only have a ss1 that lasts at most 17 seconds :/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
05-19-2011, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheYak
This is true. I've seen several players effectively use hybrid damage/healing builds. Now if only they would tell me where they got their hax...
My Sci/RSV, while not as omfgwtfpwn as others (such as Mel), puts out a fairly impressive amount of damage. 5 Beams + Sensor Analysis + 114 weapons power ftw!

And then I have my FBP to dish out moar pew pew.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
05-19-2011, 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
are we talking of pvp players, seeking for a challenge, knowing a certain new setup will beat other setups easily and will be beaten by certain setups, and knowing, without a teamwork they will lose.
or are we talking about pvp players, which are just a bunch of cpt. james t. "i kill you all" kirk , and whoever beats me is a cheater?

btw... when will be weapon fired be nerfed *i.g. 30 seconds gc on weaponfire*? i can't believe that 5 ships killed me, while i had no shilds equipped...
weaponfire is OP
I'm actualy not a big fan of "rock, paper, scissors" type of development for PVP. "Rock" will always see "Paper" as OP, as they're designed to beat them, and the NERF calls, complaints, and forum crys will be never ending. In a game that makes duels possible, I've seen nothing but problems with this type of development. After all, we only have 3 classes in this game, It's not like old SWG where you had 32 prof along with all the options that dual proffing gave you. 3 is pretty easy to balance v what other games have.

To answer your question, I would think the latter would be more of the problem. We've all seen them, the "We're Uber, we don't get beat, so if we do, they cheated or they DESERVE a NERF" crowd. From my experience, this mostly comes from the "I pwned joooo" crowd and not the guys who who use team work for the win and then say a "good match" at the end no matter if they win or lose the numbers battle.

NERFS are always like your last sentance. There will always be some1 that wants something NERFed to insure their "win" and they usualy have a specific agenda in mind. The problem with NERFs are that they provide instant gratification with no work on the others part. No changing up of their own builds, no grabbing another class to counter, etc. Cryptic got themselves into this problem and it will be Cryptic that can get themselves out of it. NERF calls are the normal, reacting to them and/or overreacting is the problem here and that doesn't come from the players.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
05-19-2011, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
No, that is wrong. Rock, Paper and Scissors are balanced, but there is a clear end.

Some complaints we encounter regarind balance is just "but rock beats scissors, that's unfair": Those are not a problem.
Other complains are: But rock can beat both paper and scissors! That's a problem.

Of course things are more complex than just rock, paper, scissors. There are a lot more figures to consider (and there are also "figure groups" to consider). That is what makes the first and the second complaints so difficult to analyze and distinguish. And it will probalby make it impossible to find the perfect solution.

But the perfect solution is not that teams can never beat each other. In a game where you can't get healing, or at least your resources of healing are finite over the course of a game, someone has to lose in the end. The best case scenario is that the outcome is purely defined by player skill.

Requested Solutions close enough to perfect can include:
  • Two specific (different or identifical) team setups can never beat each other and are forever locked in a stalemate.
  • Two specific (different or identicial) team setups always favor one of them.
  • Two specific (different or identicial) team setups can end with a win or loss.
The important goal is:
  • There are no specific team setups that can reliable (or just most of the time) beat all team setups.

The goal doesn't have to be:
  • Every team setup works against some team setups. (It is okay if some are just too bad to work...)

And the goal should definitely not be:
  • All team setups lead to a stale mate.
No wonder we're on extreme opposite sides of the FaW issue. We have very different views of "balance" in MMOs.

I've been in matches, in this game and others that came on as a complete stalemate and I have to admit that I had the absolute most "fun" out of those matches. A bunch more than if I just walked thru them like "Grant thru Richmond" or the opposite. In fact, I regarded those matches as very good development via the gaming company.

I doubt, in "group" STO space PVP if you could get a team match to be a stalemate. 5 - ? amount of ships focusing fire on 1 target is pretty much going to get a kill at 1 time or another.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
05-19-2011, 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esquire View Post
No wonder we're on extreme opposite sides of the FaW issue. We have very different views of "balance" in MMOs.

I've been in matches, in this game and others that came on as a complete stalemate and I have to admit that I had the absolute most "fun" out of those matches. A bunch more than if I just walked thru them like "Grant thru Richmond" or the opposite. In fact, I regarded those matches as very good development via the gaming company.

I doubt, in "group" STO space PVP if you could get a team match to be a stalemate. 5 - ? amount of ships focusing fire on 1 target is pretty much going to get a kill at 1 time or another.
Really a stale mate, where no progress is made? I think these don't really exist, but I think they would not be fun. A true stale mate would require s point where no deaths occur. Wouldn't that get tiresome?

I know games that were _close_ to stale mates - but eventually some kills got in, and one side got a few more than the other (or at least got the final as the last). but those aren't stale mates. Those are "just" hard-fought matches with equal quality teams (I wouldn't necessarily say equally skilled - just that the mix of skill and abilities on one side together matches the skill and abilities on the other side. E.g. one might have had the powers, but the other knew how to use its better.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
05-19-2011, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Really a stale mate, where no progress is made? I think these don't really exist, but I think they would not be fun. A true stale mate would require s point where no deaths occur. Wouldn't that get tiresome?

I know games that were _close_ to stale mates - but eventually some kills got in, and one side got a few more than the other (or at least got the final as the last). but those aren't stale mates. Those are "just" hard-fought matches with equal quality teams (I wouldn't necessarily say equally skilled - just that the mix of skill and abilities on one side together matches the skill and abilities on the other side. E.g. one might have had the powers, but the other knew how to use its better.)
Yeah, stalemate lol. Like I said before, I doubt if any group/team match would end up as a stalemate in STO. Focusing fire is just that hard a nut to crack.

But, we have had a couple of nights here in the 12th, where we pitted our skills, builds, etc against each other in 1 v 1 or even 2 v 2s. I was actualy amazed at all the stalemates that occured in the 1v1s. Didn't really matter what class of ship, who was flying it, most of the really good builds with the people that knew how to use them ended up in stalemates. It was pretty plain to see when it was going to happen also. The battles went on until both parties gave up and called it a draw.

Always was fun to see some1 stand against my jedi over in SWG also.

I had a pretty much random match against Teaugel in an MVAE v my beam boat in the picture. That lasted over 10 minutes for the 1st kill (which after neither of us wanted to go on to the 5 mark) and the only deciding factor was I happened to get a good roll on a RS which did about 30K damage that he just quite couldn't recover from. Great match and a lot of fun. Very good balance there. In fact, I'd qualify that as a stalemate also as it took the "lucky crit roll" to get the kill.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
05-19-2011, 06:54 PM
Imo, I don't believe the points you two have brought up are mutually exclusive. It seems to me one's focus is on rock, paper, scissors of skills vs other skills where the other's is more of a macro fight vs fight where 1 collection of a variety of skills won't be an automatic "I win" vs another collection of a variety of skills given approx equal player skills. I believe both should be balanced and don't need to conflict with each other. That said if some choose to min/max in a highly specialized field as a team I wouldn't think it would be out of line to expect all face rolls 1 way or the other depending on if the otherside has the skills trained to counter.

Not to beat a dead horse w/FaW, but I believe where Esquire (and others) and myself (and others) differ is team FaW in arena matches removes too many skill/tactic options from the basket of multiple opp. ships.

On the other hand I could care less about the old team tb mine spam as a ship w/a couple of tbrs +apo &/or ph could clear the area quickly for themselves and the rest of the team and therefore I didn't see a pressing need to change it.
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