Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
So, why do we still have torpedoes? Anyone? I mean a Tricobalt hitting a target and one shotting it is always gratifying, but with everyone and their pets (err, I mean dog) running FAW, CPB, PS, and other AOE nuking skills, destructible torpedoes are LITERALLY useless in PVP, hell even against Cardassian mobs! This isn't even the biggest issue, but torpedoes are SUPPOSED to be powerful, lethal weapons, but they're not. They're in fact quite laughable. Why can't we do something about this?

The other issue is that with non-destructible torpedoes, you still have to worry about shields. Most good PVPers constantly balance their shields, so even if you alpha them with BO3 and CRF and strip a shield facing to practically zip, they still have a TINY sliver of shields between you and their hull, and that's enough to make that set of 4 quantum torpedoes that would (normally) shred their hull do practically nothing. This even more so with the new Tactical team! I have couple ideas on how this could be corrected. First, the shield and non-destructible torps fix:

The show(s) weren't really consistent on their portrayal of torpedoes. In some cases they would pass right through shields and obliterate their target, and in some cases they would explode on the surface of the shield. For balancing reasons I say we should stick with the latter idea, and work from there. All examples are with quantum torpedoes, and other torps can be reworked with their various perks to compensate. Also percentages listed are per facing, not entire shield capacity.

Torp vs 100% shields: Shields absorb 100% impact damage, but recieve 25% of impact damage as shield damage.
Torp vs 80% shields: Shields absorb 90% impact damage, recieve 30% as shield damage, 10% bleedthrough
Torp vs 60% shields: Shields absorb 80%, recieve 35% as shield damage, 20% bleedthrough
...and so and so forth...
Torp vs <10% shields: Shields absorb 50%, recieve 50% a shield damage, 50% bleedthrough

In this example, torpedoes would become viable for helping to drop shield facings. With skills like High Yield, a salvo of Quantums would stand a chance (with other weapons of course) of piercing through to the hull, and would make themselves useful again. This would benefit ALL ships, not just escorts, although they would see a substantial increase in use, maybe even to the point of replacing Beam Overload 3.

Another suggestion: Transphasics are JUNK. Fix them! Add a 10% chance to completely penetrate shields, and have a rarity modifier to increase that chance, as well as skillpoints spent in the Transphasics skill. Up to a 50% chance of cracking shields completely! What's that? Target at 5% hull? RSP? No problem! High Yield 3 ftw. (this would also allow healer ships to increase their damage a bit)

Now destructible torps:
These ones are pretty simple. There are 2 options: reduce the number of things that kill them, or make them unkillable. Otherwise they're useless; even NPCs shoot them down with ease. BFAW shouldn't kill destructible torps: I don't care how good your gunner is, you're not hitting a 2 meter long torpedo casing with a starship phaser weapon. They ain't THAT accurate. If they were, I should NEVER miss with BO3 when uncloaking on someone. Tricobalt! Shoot it! Dead. 900m long Star Cruiser! Shoot it! (miss miss miss....) Uhm, what? Give them a defense stat. A ridiculously high one, at that, since they're tiny. Increase their speed. Make them immune to stupid crap like Tractor Repulsors and such, or just make them immune to the damage effect. Photonic Shockwave should kill them, CPB should not (what's it gonna do, tickle it? It doesn't have shields...) Warp plasma shouldn't kill them, Gravity well should, but Tyken's Rift should not.

The other option is to make them invulnerable like standard torpedoes, but keep their slow speed. Also give them an arming timer where the heavy warheads won't be onlined if fired from less then, say, 2km. That'll stop people from dropping them right on top of you. I prefer the first idea, as an invulnerable tricobalt is my worst nightmare, but hey. SOMETHING has to be done, coz torpedoes just aren't getting any love.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-15-2011, 10:07 AM
Quantum torpedoes are already pretty useful as part of an alpha strike. On a cloaking ship you can use CRF, BOv, and HYT together to drop a shield face and take out half or more of an enemy's hull with one press of the space bar.

Other than that though, I definitely agree that torpedoes need a little buff. The easiest thing I could think of for the non-destructible ones would be to just buff their bleedthough a bit, maybe so it's about 1.5x what it is now. So against most shields, most torpedoes would do 15% bleedthrough instead of 10%, and against resilient shields the bleedthrough would be 7.5%.

The destructible ones are iffy. I think FAW ought to take them out, but it needs a nerf for other reasons, so it should not be as common as it currently is. Torpedoes should be immune to environmental damage like Warp Plasma and Gravity Wells though.

Basically, if your target wants to do something active to stop the torpedo that's fine, but since 21st century guidance computers can avoid big danger areas, it's safe to assume the one's in STO could. It's kind of silly that the slower moving torpedoes would still go through obstacles rather than around.

I'd like to see torpedoes have a higher defense value, but both accuracy and defense need more variation in the whole game, and that's a bigger fix than just torpedoes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-18-2011, 11:43 AM
Random thought:

Why do we have an infinite amount of Torpedos? That doesn't make sense. The Enterprise D carried a complement of 250.

Different ships should have different amounts. In PvP they should run out during very long engagements.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-18-2011, 11:54 AM
The big problem is if you even have 1 point of shields left, the damage mitigation remains after the shield is gone. Take a 10,000 torpedo hit vs 1 shield:

For the bleedthrough:

10% bleedthrough is subtracted from the hit:
10,000 * 0.1 = 1,000 Bleedthrough damage
9,000 points of damage left for the next stage
NOTE: Resiliant shields discard 50% of bleedthrough, basically:
1,000 * 0.5 = 500 (Resiliant only)

For the Shield Hit at 75% resistance:

1.0 (100%) - 0.75 (75%) = 0.25 (25%) damage left after resistance.
9,000 * 0.25 = 2,250 points of damage to the shields.
2,250 - 1 points of shield facing = 2,249 damage and no more shield facing.

CURRENTLY that 2,249 is left untouched. If it were restored to pre-resistance values:
2,249/0.25 = 8,996 (Not currently done in game)

And the Hull Hit:

1,000 (Bleedthrough) + 2,249 (Post-Shields) = 3,249
32.49% of the original hit, a reduction of 67.51%
Or:
500 (Bleedthrough) + 2,249 (Post-Shields) = 2,749 (Resiliant Only)
27.49% of the original hit, a reduction of 72.51%

IF we reverse the shield resistance before applying to the hull:

1,000 (Bleedthrough) + 8,996 (Post-Shields) = 9,996
99.96% of the original hit, a reduction of 0.04%
Or:
500 (Bleedthrough) + 8,996 (Post-Shields) = 9,496 (Resiliant Only)
94.96% of the original hit, a reduction of 5.04%

Thus, if we unapplied the mitigation value after the shield failed, torpedoes would be more viable. There would still be a bit of mitigation for those who keep the shields even a sliver up, but no where near insane levels as above.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-18-2011, 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursix
The big problem is if you even have 1 point of shields left, the damage mitigation remains after the shield is gone. Take a 10,000 torpedo hit vs 1 shield:

For the bleedthrough:

10% bleedthrough is subtracted from the hit:
10,000 * 0.1 = 1,000 Bleedthrough damage
9,000 points of damage left for the next stage
NOTE: Resiliant shields discard 50% of bleedthrough, basically:
1,000 * 0.5 = 500 (Resiliant only)

For the Shield Hit at 75% resistance:

1.0 (100%) - 0.75 (75%) = 0.25 (25%) damage left after resistance.
9,000 * 0.25 = 2,250 points of damage to the shields.
2,250 - 1 points of shield facing = 2,249 damage and no more shield facing.

CURRENTLY that 2,249 is left untouched. If it were restored to pre-resistance values:
2,249/0.25 = 8,996 (Not currently done in game)

And the Hull Hit:

1,000 (Bleedthrough) + 2,249 (Post-Shields) = 3,249
32.49% of the original hit, a reduction of 67.51%
Or:
500 (Bleedthrough) + 2,249 (Post-Shields) = 2,749 (Resiliant Only)
27.49% of the original hit, a reduction of 72.51%

IF we reverse the shield resistance before applying to the hull:

1,000 (Bleedthrough) + 8,996 (Post-Shields) = 9,996
99.96% of the original hit, a reduction of 0.04%
Or:
500 (Bleedthrough) + 8,996 (Post-Shields) = 9,496 (Resiliant Only)
94.96% of the original hit, a reduction of 5.04%

Thus, if we unapplied the mitigation value after the shield failed, torpedoes would be more viable. There would still be a bit of mitigation for those who keep the shields even a sliver up, but no where near insane levels as above.
Those numbers are good but do not take into account defense active buffs and debuffs that can amp up a torpedo hit. I have killed at least 3 ships this past weekend with tric hits while they were full shield. All the ships were standing still and the crits were 50k-ish
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-18-2011, 12:16 PM
You are correct, it does not take into account the hull resist values. It simply shoes the base damage assuming you had nothing else modifying anything else on a 10k hit. But on that note, you need at the very least a 53,433.333 torpedo hit to take down 12,000 worth of shields. The bleedthrough alone on such a hit would be 5,343.3 before hull resist values.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-18-2011, 04:27 PM
Transphasics crack me up. A MK VIII Quantum does more damage than a MK XI Transphasic, even if you take the 20% bonus into account...how retarded is that? What makes it even worse is the redonkulous point cost for no benefit at all!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-18-2011, 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadP1r4te View Post
Another suggestion: Transphasics are JUNK. Fix them! Add a 10% chance to completely penetrate shields, and have a rarity modifier to increase that chance, as well as skillpoints spent in the Transphasics skill. Up to a 50% chance of cracking shields completely! What's that? Target at 5% hull? RSP? No problem! High Yield 3 ftw. (this would also allow healer ships to increase their damage a bit)
I've been hoping they'd tweak torpedoes as a whole for a while now, but transphasics are by far the worst. Same cost as plasma torps, but they're by far the most useless weapons in the game. Ridiculous cool down, hardly any damage, hardly any shield penetration.

I run plasma torps on my Vulcan ship (used to run tricobalts, but I like the ability to fire a regular torpedo and the HY version too) and they can be used successfully if you wait for the right timing. If you're right next to your target and they don't have FAW running, you can pop off a HY torp and get a good 20k damage on bare hull. They're not useless, but they do require good timing and they would DEFINITELY benefit from a really high defense.

But as a thread in the PvP forum also pointed out...why is BFAW 100% accurate? It should be condsiderably less so, since it's more like firing from the hip. It'll get fixed eventually though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-18-2011, 07:23 PM
Torpedoes do need some work with regards to how shields handle them. Honestly, with the current situation of massive heals, on the off chance that I do get through a person's shields after a RSP, EPtS, and ST, then I have to compete with HE, ET, and other powers and by the time they've run through those, their shields are back up! Yes, there are exceptions and a focus fire can break through, but as it is now, the only ship you can go 1v1 with is an Escort, and the Escort will probably lose because of it's lack of being able to participate after long periods of time, as it was designed to do... don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for the Escorts to be put into the long game, but I'm just asking that all the insta-heals have some sort of mitigation (ie, Engineering Team and Science Team changed to large HoTs--on the other hand, Hazard Emitters and other like-powers should be small insta-heals...) to keep cruisers and science vessels from totally ignoring the short game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-19-2011, 12:00 PM
I've played with and without torps on my escorts, and I lean towards keeping the torps in most cases.

1] They don't drain energy and dilute the power of your other weapons.

2] If you time them right to get them through shields, they do significant spike damage.

3] They can chase and hit a cloaking ship.

However, currently only a few torpedo types are worth anything (quantum, chroniton, tricobalt.)
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