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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
05-17-2011, 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
So it's basically: the Federation deserves everything the others have, but the others don't deserve what the Federation has...again.
Actually I believe what I said is the Klingons have gotten a taste of what the Federation has, now the Federation should get a taste of what the Klingons have.

Quote:
It was already a step towards taking away what makes other factions (note: plural AKA Roms and Klings) typical, when cloaks were given to the Feds..
So the KDF was compensated for the Feds getting ships with cloaks.
Hmm, that's an interesting theory. So the existence of the Varanus is a way for the KDF to be paid back for the existence of two Starfleet ships with cloaks? Ofcourse the Starfleet ships 'pay' for those cloaks with the exclusion of ship consoles and in some cases hull strength that make them overall less effective.

And now the KDF has received three ships with a full compliment of special abilities and ship consoles in the form of the Varanus, Siege Destroyer and Patrol Cruiser. So by your logic, the Federation should be repaid for the loss of their slight edge in ship effectiveness by the addition a a single Vice Admiral rank ship of a type that was previously restricted to the Klingons. So, we're in agreement then?

Quote:
But to have the KDF compensated for one of their typical traits taken away from them...this is unfair.
To compensate for the fact they got compensated (which is somthing they didn't deserve) you want the Feds to have a ship with battlecloak.
Nice.
What's next?
Should the Feds be compensated for the fact the KDF gets compensated for the revamp of ESD as well?
No, I'm afraid I tried to follow this twisty turny logic of yours too far and have gotten myself all turned around. It all seems to boil down to the premise that a Science Vessel is fair payment for the loss of 'exclusive access' to standard cloaks. And I'm afraid I can't agree that an entire ship classification is an appropriate trade.

But lets assume it is. Would your opinion then change when/if the KDF is given a full careers worth of science vessels? Would you then think it's okay for the Federation to be given a full careers worth of cloaking ships?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
05-17-2011, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
Actually, I'm going to go with a combination of, "You have a Klingon Science vessel, whether you want it or not, so turnabout is fair play" and the tried and true "I just want one." with the addition of "Options are good for everybody."
So....basically you don't have an answer besides "Mommy,mommy......beat up the neighbor's kid for me cuz I want his toys"....?

Not really a reason is it....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
05-17-2011, 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
Actually I believe what I said is the Klingons have gotten a taste of what the Federation has, now the Federation should get a taste of what the Klingons have.
Since the Federation got cloaks first, you got that reversed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
Hmm, that's an interesting theory. So the existence of the Varanus is a way for the KDF to be paid back for the existence of two Starfleet ships with cloaks? Ofcourse the Starfleet ships 'pay' for those cloaks with the exclusion of ship consoles and in some cases hull strength that make them overall less effective.
Let's see:

Galaxy-R 39,000 HP
Galaxy-X 39,000 HP

Fleet Escort: 30,000HP
Advanced Escort: 30,000 HP
Tactical Escort-R: 30,000 HP

Where is this perceived reducion in hullpoints you talk about?
The Defiant is also as maneuverable as a T5 Raptor is with a MkXI RCS console.
Since the Defiant is missing an Engineering console, it is simply hardwired into the ship.
Where is your perceived disadvantage here?
The Galaxy-X receives two special abilites for its console, one being the cloak and one being a free BO3 without the need for a BO to operate it.
What disadvantage do you see here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
And now the KDF has received three ships with a full compliment of special abilities and ship consoles in the form of the Varanus, Siege Destroyer and Patrol Cruiser.
Like the Federation got three retrofit ships with special abilites.First.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
So by your logic, the Federation should be repaid for the loss of their slight edge in ship effectiveness by the addition a a single Vice Admiral rank ship of a type that was previously restricted to the Klingons. So, we're in agreement then?
So you find it unfair that the Federation does no longer has a "slight edge" and wish to compensate for balance by "rebalancing" it towards the Federation again.
No I don't agree that is a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
No, I'm afraid I tried to follow this twisty turny logic of yours too far and have gotten myself all turned around. It all seems to boil down to the premise that a Science Vessel is fair payment for the loss of 'exclusive access' to standard cloaks. And I'm afraid I can't agree that an entire ship classification is an appropriate trade.
Assuming you read my entire essay on what "Science ship" on the KDF side should mean in the Klingon Gameplay threads, you certainly know I hate the idea of both sides having carbon-copies of one another and what exactly I've proposed instead.
Which is far more in style witht the Klingons and would keep the factions seperate.
But I presume you have no idea what I am talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
But lets assume it is. Would your opinion then change when/if the KDF is given a full careers worth of science vessels? Would you then think it's okay for the Federation to be given a full careers worth of cloaking ships?
Assuming you can find a character class that depends on cloaking abilities to be remotely effective, sure.
Because the reason why people are asking for something a little more science oriented for the KDF, note that science does in no way mean "research and tree hugging", but it also means Electronic Warfare is because the only ship that is supposedly suited for it is rather useless in that capacity.
The T2 BoP has the same console arrangement as the T2 Raptor, the T3 BoP has the same console arrangement as the K't'inga, the T4 BoP has the same console arrangement as the T4 Raptor.
Have you ever tried to use a Science Char with Science skills combined with such a console arrangement?
And do you really think that need can be compared to a character class that does not exist, one that actually relies on an instaled cloak to be effective?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
05-17-2011, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHARKFORCE View Post
So....basically you don't have an answer besides "Mommy,mommy......beat up the neighbor's kid for me cuz I want his toys"....?

Not really a reason is it....
Actually I believe my reason was "I want it! I want it! Buy me one NOW!!!" Or translated away from your third grade mentality, "I, as a subscriber, would enjoy this feature being available to Federation Admirals as well as Klingon Generals." And that's really the best reason for an MMO to do something because it leads to iterations like, "I appreciate the way I get to use my favorite play style while not having to abandon my fleet and friends who's continued camaraderie keeps me enjoying the game and subscribed" or even another version, "I am disappointed that the developers have decided to focus this season on a minority of players that I am not a part of, and while I have completed the end game content and another MMO is looking mighty nice, the loyalty they have built up and the friendships that have grown will keep me playing despite not being personally placated at this junction."

Actually, "I want it! Buy me one NOW!!!" is such a good reason to do something that it can really only be trumped by, "That's a horrible idea and I'll unsubscribe if it goes through" from a sufficient number of other players. Now, do you have a reason to think it's a horrible idea that will cause you to unsubscribe if it goes through? Or are you just whining?

Quote:
Since the Federation got cloaks first, you got that reversed.
Actually, I just started counting later.

Quote:
Let's see:

Galaxy-R 39,000 HP
Galaxy-X 39,000 HP

Fleet Escort: 30,000HP
Advanced Escort: 30,000 HP
Tactical Escort-R: 30,000 HP
Yep, my bad on the hull strength. I'm more familiar with KDF ships.

Quote:
The Defiant is also as maneuverable as a T5 Raptor is with a MkXI RCS console.
Yes, the Defiant-R lines up nicely with other cloaking escorts. It should, it's a freaking carbon copy of the T5 Raptor.

Quote:
Since the Defiant is missing an Engineering console, it is simply hardwired into the ship.
Where is your perceived disadvantage here?
Well, the lack of choice is galling, not being able to decide I'd like something other than an RCS console can certainly be considered a disadvantage.

Quote:
The Galaxy-X receives two special abilites for its console, one being the cloak and one being a free BO3 without the need for a BO to operate it.
What disadvantage do you see here?
A cloak is highly limited in a cruiser incapable of making alpha strikes and it's a bit disengenuous to call a phaser lance with a 45 degree arc of fire and with a 3 minute cooldown a "Bo3." Now, if they swapped out the LC Engineer slot for an LC Tactical officer, the Galaxy-X would be alot more offensive. But you're right, the combination of phaser lance and cloak is certainly more useful than a saucer separation.

But it's also certainly less useful than 1 degree of turning speed. In fact, it can almost be said that Star Cruisers and Battle cruisers have an extra engineering console socketed with an RCS console putting the dreadnaught down by 2.


Quote:
Like the Federation got three retrofit ships with special abilites.First.
Oh good, so you see that we're taking turns. It's fun to take turns and play nice with others. It's also fun to share your toys. The federation has shared science vessels, why won't we share birds of prey?[/quote]

Quote:
So you find it unfair that the Federation does no longer has a "slight edge" and wish to compensate for balance by "rebalancing" it towards the Federation again.
No I don't agree that is a good idea.
Actually, I think this shows a significant misunderstanding in what we're discussing. Possession of Birds of Prey or science vessels would not be a 'balancing' as the Bird of Prey is no more or less effective of a ship than any other class. This is about play style options. Just like possession of cloaks is not 'balancing' either, the ships that have cloaks are not really any more effective than the others.

Quote:
Assuming you read my entire essay on what "Science ship" on the KDF side should mean in the Klingon Gameplay threads,
Lets assume I didn't. And this section outlining your personal hopes and dreams for distinct play styles on distinct factions rings a little hollow when we see you later insisting that the only way to be 'remotely effective' as a Science Captain is to go the 'electronic warfare' route that we see from fed Science Vessels.

Quote:
Assuming you can find a character class that depends on cloaking abilities to be remotely effective, sure.
Yeah you're going to need to define your term here because, if by character class you mean "career" then you don't have a leg to stand on. Science captains are very effective in cruisers, raptors, carriers, and even birds of prey if played right. And very effective falls nicely into the 'remotely effective' category.

But perhaps by 'character class' you mean 'Electronic Warfare Expert" which I would consider to be more of a play style. Well, in that case 'Hit and Run Guerilla' would also count as a 'character class' and to be remotely effective you're going to need a bird of prey.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
05-17-2011, 03:12 PM
Jermbot....you have shown your true nature in your last posts,if I were to explain that nature to others visiting these forums,I would definitely recieve multiple infractions.....and you are not worth it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
05-17-2011, 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHARKFORCE View Post
Jermbot....you have shown your true nature in your last posts,if I were to explain that nature to others visiting these forums,I would definitely recieve multiple infractions.....and you are not worth it.
Multiple infractions? Wow, to have gotten THAT angry over what I'm saying, you either didn't understand or have the emotional maturity of a twelve year old. Oh well, probably is better if you walk away.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
05-17-2011, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
Multiple infractions? Wow, to have gotten THAT angry over what I'm saying, you either didn't understand or have the emotional maturity of a twelve year old. Oh well, probably is better if you walk away.
Who said anything about being angry? And I understand perfectly what you have said,it's just that its an attempt on getting me to post something that will get me banned......Homie don't play that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
05-17-2011, 03:43 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Atari Community Rules and Policies ~GM Tiyshen
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19 Your kiddling right?
05-18-2011, 01:15 PM
You honestly are comparing

FEDERATION:

Tier 1: Lieutenant

Type-8 Shuttlecraft
Danube Class Runabout
Delta Class Shuttle
Captain's Yacht
Tal'Kyr Support Craft
Light Cruiser
NX Class Light Escort
TOS Constitution Class Cruiser
Oberth Class Light Science Vessel

Tier 2: Lieutenant Commander
Cruiser
Escort
Science Vessel

Tier 3: Commander
Advanced Heavy Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Heavy Escort
Advanced Research Vessel
Research Science Vessel

Tier 4: Captain
Exploration Cruiser
Tactical Escort
Long Range Science Vessel

Tier 5: Rear Admiral
Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit
Assault Cruiser
Federation Dreadnought Cruiser
Star Cruiser
Advanced Escort
Fleet Escort
Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
Deep Space Science Vessel
Reconnaissance Science Vessel
D'Kyr Science Vessel

Tier 5: Vice Admiral
Exploration Cruiser Retrofit
Tactical Escort Retrofit
Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit
Multi-Vector Advanced Escort

TO THIS:

Tier 1: Lieutenant
B'rel Bird-of-Prey
Toron Shuttle
DujHod Chariot

Tier 2: Lieutenant Commander
QulDun Bird-of-Prey
Somraw Raptor
K'Tanco Battle Cruiser

Tier 3: Commander
Norgh Bird-of-Prey
Qorgh Raptor
K't'inga Battle Cruiser

Tier 4: Captain
Ki'tang Bird-of-Prey
Pach Raptor
Vor'cha Battle Cruiser

Tier 5: Brigadier General/Major General
Hegh'ta Heavy Bird-of-Prey
Qin Heavy Raptor
Negh'Var Heavy Battle Cruiser
Vor'cha Battle Cruiser Retrofit
Vo'quv Carrier

Tier 5: Lieutenant General
B'rel Bird-of-Prey Retrofit
Varanus Fleet Support Vessel
Guramba Siege Destroyer
Marauder Patrol Cruiser
Kar'Fi Battle Carrier

Please show me the lack of ships to play with?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
05-18-2011, 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drkfrontiers
You honestly are comparing

Actually if you read through my post you'll see I'm not. But I'm going to assume you did read through the post before addressing this subject which leads only to the conclusion that you have trouble understanding the idea of ship classifications. Let me just briefly explain the theory and, if after, you need me to let you know which ships are which classes, I'll be happy to oblige.

See, a ship classification is a group of ships with similar specifications, bridge officer layouts, weapon load outs and abilities. These ships all provide very similar game play experiences. The standard types of classifications are Cruisers, Escorts, Science Vessels, Birds of Prey and Carriers. Now, each of these classifications provide a very unique play experience from any of the other, playing an Escort is only remotely like playing a Bird of Prey and almost nothing like playing a Cruiser. Playing a Science Vessel can remotely be like playing a Bird of Prey but ask any BoP captain who's tried going the 'electronic warfare' route and they'll tell you it's really not the same.

So while the Federation has overall more ships, and I think this also needs to be addressed by the introduction of far more Klingon ships. For one, I'd like to level my Nausicaan Pirate in something a tad more appropriate than a Raptor. The KDF is receiving a wider range of play experiences which to me is far more important than having five different choices for end game cruisers.
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