Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Passive and Active Abilites
05-18-2011, 07:09 PM
LOL if you're here thinking this is a rant, maybe next time. :p


For about a couple of months now Science Spam like Scramble Sensors becoming quite a pain and we all been here debating possible solutions where an ability is nerfed, but not to the point of uselessness. For Instance, I believe Mustrum once suggested to me of maing Scramble arc limited like Viral Matrix. But lately I had this idea of more of active and passive abilities, which I think could go nicely with the new DOFF system. So I'm here to see what you all think.


For instance, with passive abilities, a DOFF skilled in ECCM (Counter-Counter Measures / Anti-Jamming) along with a new Anti-Jamming console, could make you very difficult to jam an individual. Or if someone suceeded in jamming you, the duration would be drastically reduced.



In the Active role, perhaps having Science Abilites tied more into Auxillary Power and have Science Abilities have a power drain like we do with weapons. That way abilities cannot be spammed at full power.


In theory, I figure this could reduce science spam or heal spam. Because if you use an ability to scramble and then decide to heal a teammate with Hazzard Emitters, Hazzard Emitter's effectiveness should be reduced or having those ever wonderful Sci Tankers continously healing with Hazzard Emitters and TSS like nothing happened.



So, what you think? Good idea, or not?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
05-18-2011, 07:17 PM
Stop your ranting. kidden

I don't think tying Sci to Aux drain would really help... so Sci Players would all install an EPS... and with the longer Sci skill cool downs what would be the point.

I also am not a fan of balancing by giving everyone an optional resist... all that happens then is every one takes the optional resist and its no longer optional. Well until everyone dumps SS and then everyone dumps the optional ECM Hardener or which ever its called and we are right back where we where.

I am in favor SS having an arc... I honestly have no idea why it doesn't It is a sensor probe ability. For some reason the sensor array is directional only when it chooses to be ?

I would be fine with a SS immunity after one expires... like what they did with stuns.

It may also be me but I have to question the length of the SS effect. However I think the easy fix on that would be a break on dmg type implementation ala Jam Sensors.

So I guess I'm saying I would love to see scramble sensors
- have a small duration reduction 10-20% mot a massive VM style nerf
- a 90 degree arc just like other skills on the same system
- a break on dmg component just like jam sensors. (with in reason, I wouldn't want to see the skill dropped from use. Just not the 100% for sure pug killer it is now in its 3 form, a good team can sci team each other with fairly good results)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
05-18-2011, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
But lately I had this idea of more of active and passive abilities, which I think could go nicely with the new DOFF system.
not the worst idea, but on the other hand i would like to see both systems seperated from each other balance wise. i guess it's easier to balance two systems instead of one huge. not to mention that with so many synergies the number of data sets depending to a skill is drastically increased. that would mean that a fix like faw wouldn't take 6 months but 3 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
I would be fine with a SS immunity after one expires... like what they did with stuns.
i guess this is the best option. ss would be still valuable but spamming is prevented. i guess there is a time when a radar got so much jam that more jam doesn't do anything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcArnepkhv0).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
05-18-2011, 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by H.Ramone
not the worst idea, but on the other hand i would like to see both systems seperated from each other balance wise. i guess it's easier to balance two systems instead of one huge. not to mention that with so many synergies the number of data sets depending to a skill is drastically increased. that would mean that a fix like faw wouldn't take 6 months but 3 years.
Given the DOFF example page that was up on STOked, the DOFF system very well might cause some interesting balancing. For example they shown Tactical officers that increased Torpedo firing rates and such. So an ECCM DOFF could actually be in the works.

But I doubt it would take them long to balance, since these DOFFs seem to be no different than the passives we gained from accolades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by H.Ramone
i guess this is the best option. ss would be still valuable but spamming is prevented. i guess there is a time when a radar got so much jam that more jam doesn't do anything (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcArnepkhv0).
In a funny twist, I actually wouldn't mind the screen fuzzing up like the nebula effect. But the jam dripping down might cause some issues.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
05-18-2011, 10:27 PM
I proposed a similar idea before on sci powers using power like weapons... got shot down :/

I think scramble needs to be completely rewritten to be like that nebula in "the vault" where your sensors actually get scrambled. Or change the ability name to 'auto targeting distruptor field' or somthing like that. Or is they ignore either of those have scramble sensors make everyone look the same and be named the same. That way you wont feel bad about who you're shooting, or maybe have the ships names and looks randomly switch with the other nearby ships (that is probly too complicated)...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
05-18-2011, 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Given the DOFF example page that was up on STOked, the DOFF system very well might cause some interesting balancing. For example they shown Tactical officers that increased Torpedo firing rates and such. So an ECCM DOFF could actually be in the works.

yeah, i've read some posts about it and saw the screenshots. i foresee turret boats with increased proc chance doffs . but i can't see that small numbers would help on the ss issue. and i guess you won't see numbers like -50% duration ..

although you mentioned an eccm console .. well, i've mixed feelings about items to fix broken skills. it could work, but on the other hand i would prefer the skill to be fixed . in addition, that console would be a must have for most (pvp)players and would lead to equal builds. on the other hand i wouldn't miss a sci console .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
But I doubt it would take them long to balance [...]
well, then you have more faith in cryptic than i have.
Lt. Commander
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# 7
05-18-2011, 11:32 PM
It hadn't occurred to me before, but I am not going to like the new DOff system - it will give Azurian a whole new set of things to call for nerfing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
05-18-2011, 11:59 PM
I'll get my legal department on that right away
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
05-19-2011, 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrustyMac View Post
It hadn't occurred to me before, but I am not going to like the new DOff system - it will give Azurian a whole new set of things to call for nerfing.
Well I'm cutting back given how Cryptic responded to the FAW problem, but hopefully they do some thorough testing before it's out on the Holodeck.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
05-19-2011, 05:51 AM
The Idea with the limited arc was definitely not mine, because I remembe reading it from someone else. I am not sure it is a meaningful limitation, but it could at least be one. (Though that is also implicitely a Carrier "nerf).

I am also not sure the Aux drain idea really solves the issues we are seeing. Scramble Sensors has a certain duration and a certain cooldown - should the Aux drain really last the entire cooldown? And what do you do about two players using these abilities? ANd moreover - if other powers also drain my Auxillary Power, you haven't really changed the relative values of these powers. Whether you use Scramble or Feedback Pulse, there is some Commander level slot that is gonna drain your auxillary power.
And as a Science Vessel Captain, you still have your 7-8 science skill slots to fill, there is no way around that!

THis is one of the aspects that has never been adressed, and maybe isn't really adressed in computer games in general.

Focus Fire and ability stacking works and is often the best tactic to do. Cooldowns can only make yourself stop "stacking" abilities and people running around with 4 RSPs or 3 Particle Bursts or whatever. But they can't stop a group from stacking them. For that, we only have a few rare abilities, like the Stun immunity - now, after a year or more after release.

And there is the other thing with the fact that people got there 7 primary class BO slots to fill. You can't go around that. And only a limited number of skills to fill it. You have to double up. You have to "spam" your abilities. There isn't a way around it. And this has side effects - if you apply immunites and resistances to "spammable" powers, you "nerf" PuGs - if 3 of 5 players got scramble sensors, 2 of 5 players main power is useless.

There are conflicts that are hard to fix within the existing paradigm.

A way to approach the issues is to make powers - and specifically science powers - simply less annoying. Being scrambled (especially the entire fight) is far more annoying then being under fire the entire fight.

Annoying doesn't have to mean the same as weak. If Scramble Sensors would stop mucking about our User Interface, and instead "just" applied a healing/damage/accuracy penalty to everything we do while affected by it, it would be significantly less annoying, but still powerful.

Other powers are harder to fix - being dragged into a Gravity Well constantly is annoying. But maybe even there is an approach - imagine the well would create a (possibly targetable) object that also creates cover and that lasts far longer - with a weaker, but long range pull effect (that for some mysterious reason only affects enemies?). Than it would be new scenery on the battlefiel you can interact with. Your team would try to stay near it, while the enemy would try to drag you out of it. And they would try this over a longer amount of time then just the 20 seconds or so it lasts now. At the same time, the pull effect doesn't have to be _that_ strong, just enough to be noticeable.
Same could be done with Tyken's Rift - imagine a zone where the enemy gets a constant -15-35 energy penalty for 2 minutes. Your side tries to stay in it, the enemy will try to get out. It provides a "safe spot" for your allies (they can try to hide behind it).
And for teams "stacking" these abilities - if they do not stack, but are clearly visible, it provides opportunity to positino them effectively and possibly prepare certain ambushes and safe(r) spots for the team.

---

Regarding Passive Abilities as a specific concept (which was kinda the original topic.):
We still have the issue of 12 BO slots to be filled. Double-Ranking passives makes little sense, I think, so it becomes harder to fill those slots and the load-outs will be more similar. That might not be bad from a balance point of view, but it might be a little boring...
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