Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
05-20-2011, 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
That's exactly it, how do we regulate this without causing problems?

Because nerfing abilities or putting resists on every offensive ability is going to affect PvE as well.
Resists actually barely affect the typical Solo PvE. Look at Photonic Shockwave - it gives a 15 second immunity to itself and other stun effects. The cooldown for PSW is 45 seconds or so, so you can basically never run into your own immunity. That means most PvE is unaffected by it.

The new immmunity removed the Premades that would chain Shockwaves, as they can't do it effectively anymore. But a PuG does not pre-select its skills like that, so you could end up with 5 Shockwave users that steal each other's thunder.

But we can also look - is this actually a problem in the current game? I honestly don't know. But, if was to guess: Such PuGs rarely happen. 5 Shockwave users for example would imply a PuG of 5 BoPs or Science Vessels. How often do you see that?

It is a problem if we need such penalties for lower level powers. BFAW is partially the type of problem it is because it's a Ensign level skill. Everyone can field it if he wants to, it doesn't matter what ship you fly. But for Scramble, Shockwave or Gravity Well, you need specific ships to really run the nasty versions of it. And thus, it's only likely a Premade actually builds its ship around it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
05-20-2011, 02:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
And thus, it's only likely a Premade actually builds its ship around it.
and because of this, sci-skills are OP in a premade, but weaksauce in a PUG...

Some Sci skills need to be remade to be more effective on their own, but less effective in a team.

Examples:
Tykens does not stack, and is balanced because of this. Grav well DOES stack, and because of this its effect has been tuned down. On it's own it no longer poses any threath, but if you get two on you, you're stuck. GW could perhaps be fixed by making it not stack, and increasing pull and damage a good bit.

Scramble Sensors is a nice PvE skill. Reducing duration will make it useless in PvE, because borg and undine have a massive resistance that cuts duration in half. (or more). Applying immunity upon expiration would help, but this skill really needs a complete redesign.

CPB, works OK on its own, but can be too much in a team with multiple copies. Apply immunity perhaps? even 10 seconds would help.


I guess what this boils down to, is that teamwork itself is OP in STO. Working together has too high advantages compared to not doing so. This makes the game awsome for those few who DO play in good teams (1 in 1,000 players?), but makes the game less attractive to everyone else. Or... I should not say it makes the game awsome for those players... It makes their performance awsome. I think it would be a lot more fun for eveyone if teamwork was slightly less effective.. .( It would also make it a lot easier for people to start PvP.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
05-20-2011, 05:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
I guess what this boils down to, is that teamwork itself is OP in STO. Working together has too high advantages compared to not doing so. This makes the game awsome for those few who DO play in good teams (1 in 1,000 players?), but makes the game less attractive to everyone else. Or... I should not say it makes the game awsome for those players... It makes their performance awsome. I think it would be a lot more fun for eveyone if teamwork was slightly less effective.. .( It would also make it a lot easier for people to start PvP.)
even in a pug you *could* work together. the sad thing is most pugs don't care and/or have crappy builds. i remeber a couple of matches when i was in a (pug) team with one or two known pvpers and we melt the enemy team, sometimes we even beat premades (well, no hardcore pvp fleets ofc). but this won't work if your team consists of 2 empblem farmers, one captain kirk full impulsing to where no man has gone before and one guy leaving the map . and well, if your performance in a pug team is highly above the average (which normally is if you're a pvper by heart) then you're a cheater. they don't ask for help, no, they just put you on the ignore list .

i guess even a huge teamplay nerf (like 50% healing penalty if used on others, focus fire damage reduction) wouldn't change much in a pug vs premade scenario (well, i guess you would see a lot more zombie cruisers - eng tank only cruisers dealing no damage). but it would have a huge impact on premade matches. not that they are often these days .......... so who cares.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
05-20-2011, 06:13 AM
I always thought that all science skill is always too powerful if used multiples and doesn't effect anyone if used with few players or alone.. I belive that gravity well should create "bad zones" and not be the end of all hope when used 3 at the same location. Anyhow I still find this endless healing more boring the offencive scipowers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
05-20-2011, 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
But is it any less unfair that Science Ships can throw out 5 or 6 abilities within quick succession without consequences? This is becoming very popular tactic in PvP with teams with science ships.
No more unfair than an Escort pumping out APO + BO + CRF + HYT + TacCaptain buffs of a Cruiser throwing out EngTeam + Aux to SIF + Hazard + TSS + Extend.

Perhaps the reason Sci gets so much hate is because a lot of it is AoE (Scramble, GW/Tyken's, CPB, PSW, etc)?

What sucks is that there is no way to fairly balance anything. Premades will always have the upper hand. Balance something towards premades, and you're screwing over pugs and the average player completely. Balance it towards pugs, and premades can utterly dominate without batting an eye.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
05-20-2011, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
No more unfair than an Escort pumping out APO + BO + CRF + HYT + TacCaptain buffs of a Cruiser throwing out EngTeam + Aux to SIF + Hazard + TSS + Extend.

Perhaps the reason Sci gets so much hate is because a lot of it is AoE (Scramble, GW/Tyken's, CPB, PSW, etc)?

What sucks is that there is no way to fairly balance anything. Premades will always have the upper hand. Balance something towards premades, and you're screwing over pugs and the average player completely. Balance it towards pugs, and premades can utterly dominate without batting an eye.
I disagree, this won't hurt PuGs anymore than it would hurt Premades. The only things that would help PuGs is either extensive training or Cryptic closes the gap between Inexperienced and Experienced players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dassem_Ultor
and because of this, sci-skills are OP in a premade, but weaksauce in a PUG...

Some Sci skills need to be remade to be more effective on their own, but less effective in a team.

Examples:
Tykens does not stack, and is balanced because of this. Grav well DOES stack, and because of this its effect has been tuned down. On it's own it no longer poses any threath, but if you get two on you, you're stuck. GW could perhaps be fixed by making it not stack, and increasing pull and damage a good bit.

Scramble Sensors is a nice PvE skill. Reducing duration will make it useless in PvE, because borg and undine have a massive resistance that cuts duration in half. (or more). Applying immunity upon expiration would help, but this skill really needs a complete redesign.

CPB, works OK on its own, but can be too much in a team with multiple copies. Apply immunity perhaps? even 10 seconds would help.


I guess what this boils down to, is that teamwork itself is OP in STO. Working together has too high advantages compared to not doing so. This makes the game awsome for those few who DO play in good teams (1 in 1,000 players?), but makes the game less attractive to everyone else. Or... I should not say it makes the game awsome for those players... It makes their performance awsome. I think it would be a lot more fun for eveyone if teamwork was slightly less effective.. .( It would also make it a lot easier for people to start PvP.)
You pretty much nailed it. Teamwork is very lethal whether its a bunch of BoPs focus firing on a Federation player, healers restoring a damaged teammate from 1% to 100% in seconds, or coordination of abilities.

And most of this is why Space PvE on Elite is so easy, much has to do with the changes that was implemented for PvP. So hopefully Cryptic is reading and taking notes, if they improve this, then it may change even people's perception of STO altogether.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
05-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I disagree, this won't hurt PuGs anymore than it would hurt Premades. The only things that would help PuGs is either extensive training or Cryptic closes the gap between Inexperienced and Experienced players.

You pretty much nailed it. Teamwork is very lethal whether its a bunch of BoPs focus firing on a Federation player, healers restoring a damaged teammate from 1% to 100% in seconds, or coordination of abilities.

And most of this is why Space PvE on Elite is so easy, much has to do with the changes that was implemented for PvP. So hopefully Cryptic is reading and taking notes, if they improve this, then it may change even people's perception of STO altogether.
well, in closed beta pve space fights were pretty tough. then open beta started, everybody cried and they made it so ****ing easy that a blind monkey can run missions in sto.

well, it's not on cryptic to close the gap but on the inexperienced players, thats my opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
05-20-2011, 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by H.Ramone
well, in closed beta pve space fights were pretty tough. then open beta started, everybody cried and they made it so ****ing easy that a blind monkey can run missions in sto.

well, it's not on cryptic to close the gap but on the inexperienced players, thats my opinion.
Yes, I remember that. I actually felt it was just right in means of challenge.

Really think it would be more Star Trek if we faced 1 tough ship than 4 or 6 ships. But thats another thread in itself. But needless to say, if PvE was tougher on the norm, then there is the possibility inexperienced PvErs would be more resiliant in PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
05-20-2011, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Yes, I remember that. I actually felt it was just right in means of challenge.

Really think it would be more Star Trek if we faced 1 tough ship than 4 or 6 ships. But thats another thread in itself. But needless to say, if PvE was tougher on the norm, then there is the possibility inexperienced PvErs would be more resiliant in PvP.
I dunno... I mean, I saw a Tac/Assault Cruiser in Ker'Rat the other day using Tyken's I.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
05-20-2011, 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
I dunno... I mean, I saw a Tac/Assault Cruiser in Ker'Rat the other day using Tyken's I.
Did he live long and prosper ?
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