Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
05-24-2011, 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
Yeah test it out you would be surprised. I have it happen to me all the time with the Aux phaser proc and those pesky sci ships running BTAS. Seems counter intuitive to have teams connect to aux system if one of those teams is to fix down subsystems. But I am stating that is the case.
Thats where the extra oberth console comes handy, especially with ships short on battery slots
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
05-24-2011, 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
Thats where the extra oberth console comes handy, especially with ships short on battery slots
I run RMC with Aux battery and if all else fails I switch power settings for a second or 2. Really though if you cannot handle a system being disabled through a proc no skill an escort carries will help. AUx procs i do not care, shield procs I do not care (2EPtS), eng proc I do care, weapon proc I do not care while I am not doing damage I am at least able to run
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
05-24-2011, 07:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
Thats where the extra oberth console comes handy, especially with ships short on battery slots
And what console do I go without. In the escort the consoles are a premium.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
05-24-2011, 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
And what console do I go without. In the escort the consoles are a premium.
Depends, its always that or this...its all about preferences not everyone is running engineering team or 2x EptS on their escorts, so its interesting alternative. Well at the cost of one console. Its always good to have options.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
05-24-2011, 08:10 AM
This seems like a logical idea in some fashion or another. Having said that, I feel that the pace of startrek online pvp is about right and a change this big would more than likely have broad effects on our gameplay. I have cried about the spam and faw but after just a little time and a few adjustments the game goes on gameplay becomes fun or at least tolerable. Just saying that changes make the game evolve, sometimes for good and sometimes for the worse, but evolving/changing game play represents the ebb and flow of war.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
05-24-2011, 09:36 AM
As someone who has played Sci in a Sci ship since launch, I have to ask...

Doesn't anyone remember when Sci Ships weren't even thought of? When people would say that flying a Sci ship was a stupid idea, no matter what your class? They just didn't have a use except for healing, and that cruisers could do it better?

They finally gave Sci a use in this game. Sci feels right now. In order to get those Sci Skills off at maximum effect, you end up with little in the way of firepower. It's a trade off.

The issue doesn't come from the need to have AUX drain, it comes from a need for stacking resistance and immunity.

If you get hit with a PSW, then you should be immune to another one for a while, at least 10 seconds or so. If you get snagged by a Tractor Beam, then you should have a resistance to the next one for a short time. Scramble sensors should also give an immunity when it expires for a while.

These things would easily make it all more balanced, and all these power people claim are OP wouldn't be considered as such if you had a chance to recover. Much like getting hit with an escorts alpha strike. If you survive they need some time to reset for another. Well, so do Sci Ships. In order to chain, you need more than one ship.

There is no way to one shot a player with Sci Skills alone. I'd have to see this in person to belileve it. As I said, I have been playing Sci since launch. I know Sci like my own hand, and it's not doable with a single ship using Sci Skills alone. A popular combo I have seen lately is CPB, PSW and Tricobalt Torpedo. Even with that, the target usually lives. It's the fire after effect that gets them, and without the Tri it doesn't even hurt much.

AUX drain wouldn't matter in that situation because PSW isn't affected by AUX power. You can have 25 aux power and it will still do the same stun and damage as having 125 aux power. Go on to tribble and test it. The more you put into Photonic Theory, the more it does. AUX has no effect on it.

So an AUX drain there wouldn't stop that combo from being mean.

Anytime I have seen a Sci ship lock someone down, they die by the fire of the other members of the team. Go do some 1v1 against a decent sci player. They will have a tough time killing you. Not saying they can't kill you, but if you die in one shot you aren't doing something right. You should have a tough time killing them as well.

A Sci ships job is to lock down enemies, keep them weak with debuffs and heal. They aren't designed nor good at dealing damage.

My best damage actually comes from Tractor Beam Repulsors. I get close as I can, flying toward target, hit TBR3 and then evasive and push them straight across the map. Every second that TBR hits them, they take 2k damage. Usually I only hit them with 6 or 7 pulses because I push them out of range. The average damage is 15k. That is to the hull, not the shields.

Recently I have added using Tachyon Beam while I push them to try and drop those shields so I can use torpedo fire to finish them off.

Sadly, even a BoP can take 15k damage and survive, and it doesn't stun so you can heal the whole time. Some players seem to panic and try to get away from it and forget to heal, but most just take it and heal. Polarize Hull completely negates it.

Even GW can't kill you unless you are also getting pounded or already damaged.

Sci Skills aren't the problem. It's the ability to stack multiple copies of them on a player. I know of a trio of sci players who are a testament to why we need effect immuniites.

They chain, CPB, PSW and Tricobalt.

Each one used CPB, then one uses PSW and launches a Tri. The next does the same, in order until they all have fired on you. Most players will die to this. But it takes 3 of them to pull it off. I have seen some people survive it, however, by sheer luck or by knowing what to do to avoid death...whichever it was.

Point is, it takes 3 of them to pull that off, and they still have to use the Tri Torp. I have seen a single Defiant come out of stealth, open fire with an alpha strike and kill a player in less than 5 seconds. So, how is that any more balanced than what it takes 3 Sci players to do?

If a Sci player is hitting you with big beams, he doesn't have the AUX to burn you up with TB or GW. And, as I said already, the combo I just mentioned wouldn't matter with an AUX drain anyway. PSW isn't affected by it.

An AUX drain would kill the Science ship. They have the fewest weapons, barely more hull than an escort and most of them turn just a hair better than a cruiser. Add in that the majority of Sci Skill require you to be in front of the ship and you start to see they aren't easy to fly successfully. It's taken a long time for people to learn to play Sci, and now that they have finally figured out what they are supposed to do on a team and how to do it everyone cries they are overpowered.

You have to learn to adapt to them just as they had to learn to fly right. If we get immunities to chained effects, the problems should go away. In fact, Sci would probably be weaker again. If a Sci locks you down, you die by the fire of the team. That Sci ship isn't what's hurting you. There isn't a Sci Skill out there that can't be cancled or cleared or avoided, if you are prepared and know what to do. But chaining them, well that can't be stopped.

Let's not change the basics of the game for something that isn't broken. The Skills are fine, they aren't broken. Let's fix what is broken, like chaining.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
05-24-2011, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staalker View Post

Let's not change the basics of the game for something that isn't broken. The Skills are fine, they aren't broken. Let's fix what is broken, like chaining.

I will agree with you for the most part. But most of the really broken sci skills do require aux. PSW has been fixed and is great where it is at. SS with full aux is very strong, tractor beams with full aux are formidable.

Chaining has always been the problem with this game wayback in season 1.xx it was the ridiculous BTXS that could stack so far you would never recover your power. Or AP:X stacking after that. Now heal and resist stacking. I have gone against many teams where my alpha just plinked off the shields no matter the target, I have had alphas that have done a whopping 1500 in damage because the shields refuse to move because the shield resists are through the roof. Sci right now can disable both tac and eng. There are plenty of soft counters for sci skills but unlike sci buffs and debuffs are much more effective then tac buffs and debuffs. Should Tac buff/debuffs be better no I think if anything they should be equal since favoring tacs would put the shoe on the other foot. Right now the most effective damage dealer is a Sci in an escort because it combines almost the best of both worlds stacking tac skills and debuffing the target.

I will end the ramble there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
05-24-2011, 02:29 PM
the relevance of aux drain would be moot in near all players circumstances. Just like the tiny amount of drain from standard weapons fire. Most people use 1 eps as it is.

The simple fact is the momentary "burst" capable from aux based powers in terms of CC/dps/ heal would be altered, people who do everythign at once all the time would suffer the most.

The idea isnt crazy, its logical. Think of each system energy bar as a capacitor. The energy from the warp core isnt directly translated into phaser fire...... If the phasers fire faster than the power refills it the level of power in the capacitor drops.

Why does the energy that is directed into shield transfering system/ dampening and structural field/ sensors and hazard systems not follow the same paradgim. produce>store>use

look at how much energy is drained from wpns before u start to cry. aux drain shouldnt be much more

how much could one ability actually take? clearly weapons require alot of energy, the highest energy weapon uses 12 energy per fire cycle (dhc). I posit a high of a tic 10 for an aux power like ss/cpb3/ haz/ etc

Thats where the balance comes in. This would simply be a tool for the devs to inhibit the EXPLOITATION of stacking such skills AND remainign a viable sci spam offensive threat simultaneously

good day thanks for reading
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
05-24-2011, 04:00 PM
I can't agree. Joe.

Take the combo I mentioned.

Charged Particle Burst, Photonic Shockwave, Tricobalt Torpedo.

The AUX drain would occur on the CPB, but not on PSW or the Torp. If three players do this too you, even if they fire the skills fast, you are still dead. AUX drain wouldn't matter there.

What WOULD fix it is that the second PSW couldn't stun you because you had temporary immunity from the first. That would give you time to get moving, get a heal off or shoot down the incoming Torps.

AUX darin is NOT going to fix 90% of the issues we have, players can still chain. You have to undestand that a single player can't really chain Sci Skills. If takes multiple players using them in sequence, and that is something that AUX drain isn't going to correct.

Really, they could add a drain. Only the healers are going to feel it. Problem I have with adding a drain is that it won't fix the issue. Stacking is the issue, and a drain won't fix that. Why put such work into something that won't fix the issue.

BFAW is a perfect example of fixing something the wrong way. Let's NOT do that anymore.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
05-24-2011, 11:55 PM
Just for the record - when a stun ends, it applies an "Emergency Dampeners" buff on your ship that dispels all stuns and provides temporary immunity to further stuns.

This change is only a few months old, but it has removed the chance of stun spamming and all that. The reason the CPB/PSW/TB3/Tri-Cobalt Bomber is still used is because Tri-Cobalts are spike weapons. (Or because some people still haven't caught up to the news.)
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