Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
05-26-2011, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
I agree to the point of the weapon drain but when they implemented all sci powers pretty much ran off aux in season 1.3 or there abouts they were trying to make sci skills and sci ships chic. They never intended the game to have science running minimal weapon with kinetic heavy builds and max or close to max aux. Using FBP and powers like it with almost 100% up time. Butting some sort of mechanic to limit heals and powers powered by Aux would make things strategic which this game lacks. 90% of the players here in this game when they heal do not pay attention to timing or they just dump the kitchen sink, as faithborn called it, over heal. Sci would be affected by this the most then followed by cruisers and some escorts like the MVAM would also have a little issue with also.

Really a drain would help with the diminishing returns when someone tries to do too much at once with aux.
I know Science Vessel Captains that change their power settings regularly. I do it. PvP, PvE, I change my settings. And I am pretty much optimized for the CPB/PSW/TB3/Tric route with my char and thus focus most of my offensive power on this "Science / Kinetic) spike.

Other players switch around even more, actively use Aux batteries and what-not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
05-26-2011, 03:24 PM
Why should aux based powers suffer drain if engineering powers and tactical powers don't?

Weapons are wildly different from BO powers. It is like comparing a zebra to a hummingbird.

What is the real goal anyway? At best a science ship is going to fire off 3 aux based heals. That is already balanced, however. You fire off your heals and you have nothing but aux to SIF 1 for at least 15s when TSS and HE wear off 15s later.

Take an actual look at science powers. Look at the ridiculously long cooldowns. Transfer shield strength and hazard emitters have a 15s uptime, 30s downtime. If you get 2 copies then you are spending 4 powers and still have at best a 50% uptime ratio.

Where is the spam? I don't see it, sorry.

And it is no different for offensive powers.

The proposal here is nonsense because it is simply looking to punish science players for simply using their powers. Why shouldn't tactical and engineering ships suffer the same? Why should science suffer disproportionately when those powers are not even available as often as tac or eng powers?

There is already balance there. If a science ship fires their 7-8 science powers all at once, then they can't do ANYTHING sciencey until 30-60 seconds later, because everything is on cooldown. That means you wait 15s for their HE and TSS to run out then kill them easily because they have no resists and no healing.

Anyone who fires off all their powers at once is either in a lot of trouble and probably won't survive anyway, or they are probably going to be pretty useless while they wait for their cooldowns. In my experience, timing and spacing the powers to keep a more continuous use of powers is more effective, as it keeps people off balance for a long time.

Rarely is it appropriate to fire off everything at once, and when you do, you have a cooldown problem. Again, that is why it is already balanced.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
05-26-2011, 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I know Science Vessel Captains that change their power settings regularly. I do it. PvP, PvE, I change my settings. And I am pretty much optimized for the CPB/PSW/TB3/Tric route with my char and thus focus most of my offensive power on this "Science / Kinetic) spike.

Other players switch around even more, actively use Aux batteries and what-not.
From what I've seen the following boosts the skills you mentioned:

tb:
ops
emmitters
tb

cbp:
ops
sensors
astrometrics

psw:
ops
emmitters
deflector dish

You could max 2, but you'd be leaving out the most important imo (cbp) via consoles and deflectors spread out skills boosted.

Imo, the main reason people seem to complain about sci spam is the tac team changes made it more difficult to burst through a shield side with just raw dps. If tac team reverted people would not bother w/things such as cpb as it would most often be better to just max tac skills uncloak and pop the ff ship. Tbo, I don't pvp as much since FaW changes came into play and I haven't run into a cbp team to know what it's like. But, if I did I would try things like boosting hull w/kinetic resists, switching to beams and fighting outside of 5km, target subsystem aux, and have aoe damage to kill high alpha torps.

That said if it is a problem 1 solution could be to have sci team give immunity to chaining effects for a limited time (as it does for most sci skills). I just think with SP/device investments being what they are adding a drain would be too straining for captains who are aready strained enough to find power.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 74
05-26-2011, 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by staalker View Post
I can't agree. Joe.

Take the combo I mentioned.

Charged Particle Burst, Photonic Shockwave, Tricobalt Torpedo.

The AUX drain would occur on the CPB, but not on PSW or the Torp. If three players do this too you, even if they fire the skills fast, you are still dead. AUX drain wouldn't matter there..
why wouldnt it? is nothign at all else occuring? the player should not be able to heal, aux to damp,hazrd..ETC at maximum power after that cpb3 spike. THATS WHAT IM TLAKING ABOUT THIS EXACT COMBO!!!!

the combo i do, and abuse the fact that aux to damp cpb3 and to a lesser extent tractor beam dont actually cost any power, also simultaneously keeping max aux for max cloak efficacy (brel)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75
05-26-2011, 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmoeJoe
why wouldnt it? is nothign at all else occuring? the player should not be able to heal, aux to damp,hazrd..ETC at maximum power after that cpb3 spike. THATS WHAT IM TLAKING ABOUT THIS EXACT COMBO!!!!

the combo i do, and abuse the fact that aux to damp cpb3 and to a lesser extent tractor beam dont actually cost any power, also simultaneously keeping max aux for max cloak efficacy (brel)
You think a ship quickly popping in a 3v1 to coordinated Sci attack is OP????Or you think B'rel w/Sci Captain solo is OP???

In the 1st case if you were a TAC Captain in a B'rel maxed in Tricobolts to lead w/a stun (4 second time). You don't think 2 other buffed Tacs in Raptors could blow away the exposed shield side and finish off w/Trics &/or BO3 in that time as well? In the second that's at worst a specific ship and captain class combo and doesn't translate to all of the captains in that class.

Why don't you stop cherry picking and answer why you think these apples to oranges comparisons are valid?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 76
05-26-2011, 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
You think a ship quickly popping in a 3v1 to coordinated Sci attack is OP????Or you think B'rel w/Sci Captain solo is OP???

In the 1st case if you were a TAC Captain in a B'rel maxed in Tricobolts to lead w/a stun (4 second time). You don't think 2 other buffed Tacs in Raptors could blow away the exposed shield side and finish off w/Trics &/or BO3 in that time as well? In the second that's at worst a specific ship and captain class combo and doesn't translate to all of the captains in that class.

Why don't you stop cherry picking and answer why you think these apples to oranges comparisons are valid?
apples to orange comparison:

Bo powers Associated with weapons are what are responsible for true weapons energy drain. Beam overload provides an instantaneous burst that drops the power by 50. Scatter Volley and faw both (or should if they dont) drain power appropriate when utilized.

The regular weapons fire might not contribute greatly to the drain, but the dmg values are reduced from the drain itself, IE: the extra turrets in the rear of many escort attack ships will be at reduced efficacy immediately after beam overload.<<<<<<


Thus, using a science power associated with the auxillary system, should, by comparative logic, drain soem power that could then in theory reduce the efficacy of other lesser sci skills fired subsequently. The value of this would not only be balance but added complexity. Meaning...

-It might make a difference which skill to fire first in some situations, wanting your cpb3 to be at max for example.
-It could make people use their skills sparingly when at max power, sequence batteries and utilize ep power more than they already do. (for those elite powergamers)

AND YES- IT would PUNISH those who simply spam every skill they have all the time as they may be required to think, not nearly as often or much as the precision surgical accuracy required to play tactical!

end rant
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 77
05-26-2011, 06:32 PM
Should there be a penalty on Tac abilities? Using the same logic, there should be some sort of "Captain/BO fatigue" on popping APA + APO + GDF+ TacFleet + FoMM + BO + CRF + TacTeam + HYT. (Bolded being BO abilities only, if you'd like to limit it to just that for fairness)

That could would rip the pants off of just about anything. Yet, it's not subject to any drains like this proposed Aux drain and the cooldowns on the BO abilities are far lower than Sci abilities.

The issue I think you're trying to combat is "Sci spikes." Such spikes require a high skill point investment, come at the cost of having low weapons power, and have high cool downs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 78
05-26-2011, 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmoeJoe
apples to orange comparison:

Bo powers Associated with weapons are what are responsible for true weapons energy drain. Beam overload provides an instantaneous burst that drops the power by 50. Scatter Volley and faw both (or should if they dont) drain power appropriate when utilized.

The regular weapons fire might not contribute greatly to the drain, but the dmg values are reduced from the drain itself, IE: the extra turrets in the rear of many escort attack ships will be at reduced efficacy immediately after beam overload.<<<<<<


Thus, using a science power associated with the auxillary system, should, by comparative logic, drain soem power that could then in theory reduce the efficacy of other lesser sci skills fired subsequently. The value of this would not only be balance but added complexity. Meaning...

-It might make a difference which skill to fire first in some situations, wanting your cpb3 to be at max for example.
-It could make people use their skills sparingly when at max power, sequence batteries and utilize ep power more than they already do. (for those elite powergamers)

AND YES- IT would PUNISH those who simply spam every skill they have all the time as they may be required to think, not nearly as often or much as the precision surgical accuracy required to play tactical!

end rant
Idk, what you're talking about ... I have gone into great detail explaining how Scis and Tacs aren't the same. Pointing out among other things the builds aren't the same and included a link to a relatively low SP max dps build and thus the apples to oranges references. You stated the "apples oranges" reference and by your own words went on a "rant". One I find nonsensical.

As has been pointed out Sci skills can't be spammed all the time because the skills' coodowns are too long and they share timers/resources. With ever changing tactical situations a sci pilot must think of when and how many skills to use. Compare TAC skill cooldowns w/Sci and see which have the longer cooldowns.

You point out how a couple of engineering skills and/or battery can mitigate the Weapon drain, and ignore what has been brought up before Sci builds require more engergy in more categories (all of them, yes including engines in order to have a decent enought turn rate to apply 90 degree skills) than Tac builds (max weapons, none aux, split shields/engines at pilots choosing).

TL/DR

You just repeated a phrase used against you before a nonsensical rant .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 79
05-26-2011, 09:45 PM
Maybe it would help to think of sci-skills more in form of DPS or HPS (heal per seconds). How much DPS (timeframe CD+active time) can a fully trained+buffed CPB really do compared to a normal fully skilled weapon without additional BO-powers?

Sure CPB (I will focus on it for sake of an easy example) does all its damage in one short burst but that's the case with normal weapons too which reload much faster. But instead of a normal weapon which can buffed through several skills CPB can't be buffed any more via BO-powers (well sci-team but the increase is not very impressive at all). Luckily it is one of the few skills which ignore shield-resistance. On the other hand I think (never tested it) normal weapons buffed with skills can still do more dps against a shield with resistance than CPB.


But I can also see the problem that sci-powers don't scale well with skillpoints spent and aux in general.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 80
05-27-2011, 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmoeJoe
apples to orange comparison:

Bo powers Associated with weapons are what are responsible for true weapons energy drain. Beam overload provides an instantaneous burst that drops the power by 50. Scatter Volley and faw both (or should if they dont) drain power appropriate when utilized.
Beam Fire At Will got additional power drain because that was an attempt to balance it extreme damage boost. It did not help, actually.

Cannon Scatter Volley's increased energy drain was a bug and got fixed.

Attack Pattern Omega, Beta, Delta, High Yield Torpedo, Torpedo Scatter Volley, Mine Dispersal Patterns, Tactical Team, Cannon Rapid Fire, Cannon Scatter Volley - they all do not increase energy drain.
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