Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,791
# 1 Dialogue and Player immersion
09-03-2013, 05:05 PM
Recently i have been investigating the methods available in the foundry for the Use of Meaningful Dialoge

By this i refer to dialogue which has some kind of of impact on the Map or events that take place on a Map ( since we can't carry over anything from previous maps yet)

This would also include Computer based Puzzles, since they use the dialogue boxes

So 2 things:

Firstly want to ask, speaking as a player first, author second, how do you feel about dialogue choices which will change things in the map around them

- does it bother you that your choices will cause some content to be locked out to you, by choosing one option that will hide another meaning you can't see it unless you replay, or does the value of player based actions causing a reaction from the Mission improve the missions for you? - related question, does this improve upon replayability for you?


- Would you be likely to get into character/roleplay with dialogue choices?
do you like to be able to choose a more klingon sounding response or a more logical response as appropriate? and does it frustrate you and break your immersion if these options are NOT avalible?
And on top of this do you like it when this choice has a consequence that is unknown to you at the time you made your choice? For instance Angering an NPC which may cause the to become offended, and ignore your cries for help later on in the mission, where you could have instead made an ally who will come to your aid?
Or a scenario which might inadvertently cause the death of an NPC who could have provided you with information

-Easter Eggs/ out of context humor, the idea of gating out of context humor behind an out of context Response from the player, to prevent serious players being offended by possibly non Relevant, or downright silly humor

e.g you get the option to referance something out of context in dialogue, which causes a few objects or an NPC performing a funny action related to the dialogue, that wouldn't otherwise be there

- also i would ask , do you prefer it if your dialogue always causes a significant diverging branch? giving a more unique experience, or is it enough for you just to have different ways of responding



Secondly (if you have made it this far without getting bored and navigating away form my thread) I would like to discuss the mechanics by which this can be acheived, and any limitations you have faced or predict in using dialogue in this way

- so far i have mostly been using Dialogue prompt reached, a limitation i found early on is i cannot apply this option to story board related dialogue, so when i want to have major things happen i have to go off road so to speak, i have found a work around for this, but i'm trying to refine it ( i can go into detail if anyone is interested, but i'm not going to type it out now, unless it becomes obvious that somebody is curious)

- The complexity involved makes it very time consuming for Authors to do, and the opinions of how to make good dialogue vary from person to person, too much dialogue could multiply the number of mistakes made, and put strain on the creative mind of authors to create enough character driven dialogue to give good believability

Hopefully i can get some feedback on this, though i'm not too sure what to expect from the forums , but hey nothing ventured, nothing gained


These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......

Last edited by adverbero; 09-03-2013 at 07:48 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,279
# 2
09-03-2013, 06:23 PM
I like being able to make choices that affect how the mission turns out. And I also like being able to choose my responses depending on which character I'm using.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,696
# 3
09-03-2013, 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adverbero View Post
- Would you be likely to get into character/roleplay with dialogue choices?
do you like to be able to choose a more klingon sounding response or a more logical response as appropriate? and does it frustrate you and break your immersion if these options are NOT avalible?
Different possible dialog responses for different possible characters is attractive to RP-minded captains. Kirkfat's "Relics" uses the "regular" and "Vulcan" flavors (for example, you can either return your counselor's affections or be Vulcan and blow her off, and BTW I think Kirkfat's making the "no emotions AT ALL" mistake just a little bit) but there's other options.

To give you an example from my own project, in "Bait and Switch" I have you talking to a contact on Deep Space 9, and he asks you how much you know about the current military/political situation in the sector. You can tell him that you're new to Beta Ursae, or if you've played the Cardie storyline or have it in your backstory you can tell him you've served a few tours in the area. Or, if, like me, you have a Bajoran captain, you can tell him you grew up there. The first option elicits basically, "Figures; they send me a n00b," the second has him basically satisfied, the third gets surprise.

I feel little touches like that improve immersion for RP-minded players, and the loot-grinders are just gonna skip past it all anyway and might not even pick your mission up in the first place.

And yes, I find it mildly annoying that Cryptic didn't think to include dialog code triggered by particular races and whatnot. For example, it looks silly to walk around Hathon and have the Bajoran Militia guys talking to you like you know absolutely nothing about Bajor when your nose is just as crinkly as theirs.
Vadm. Kanril Eleya, U.S.S. Andraste, Strike Team Alpha

Useful Links for Foundry Writers | "Bait and Switch" -- Fed Foundry project, Part 1 rewards-qualified!
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Last edited by starswordc; 09-03-2013 at 07:24 PM. Reason: added quote
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,791
# 4
09-03-2013, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starswordc View Post
Different possible dialog responses for different possible characters is attractive to RP-minded captains. Kirkfat's "Relics" uses the "regular" and "Vulcan" flavors (for example, you can either return your counselor's affections or be Vulcan and blow her off, and BTW I think Kirkfat's making the "no emotions AT ALL" mistake just a little bit) but there's other options.

To give you an example from my own project, in "Bait and Switch" I have you talking to a contact on Deep Space 9, and he asks you how much you know about the current military/political situation in the sector. You can tell him that you're new to Beta Ursae, or if you've played the Cardie storyline or have it in your backstory you can tell him you've served a few tours in the area. Or, if, like me, you have a Bajoran captain, you can tell him you grew up there. The first option elicits basically, "Figures; they send me a n00b," the second has him basically satisfied, the third gets surprise.

I feel little touches like that improve immersion for RP-minded players, and the loot-grinders are just gonna skip past it all anyway and might not even pick your mission up in the first place.

And yes, I find it mildly annoying that Cryptic didn't think to include dialog code triggered by particular races and whatnot. For example, it looks silly to walk around Hathon and have the Bajoran Militia guys talking to you like you know absolutely nothing about Bajor when your nose is just as crinkly as theirs.
Thats cool, the varying degrees of experiance is something i will keep in mind, Might be useful to add referances to the players past , i think thats a great example of player immersion

now that i think back, it could be quite interesting to talk about the storylines in passing that way, and an interesting way to test them a little

for example, the player says they know all about/ were involved in an event, The NPC tells the player some false information about what faction did what in a Memorable event , if the player then says, yeah i was there, the NPC can call you out on it , or you could be given the oppertunity to correct them etc etc
simple, short, and a little fun


These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......

Last edited by adverbero; 09-03-2013 at 07:45 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,760
# 5
09-03-2013, 08:14 PM
I wish there was a way of addressing gender and race the same as you can address a players rank and name.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 6
09-03-2013, 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolninspace View Post
I wish there was a way of addressing gender and race the same as you can address a players rank and name.
Yes, that would be quite nice.
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Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 466
# 7
09-03-2013, 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolninspace View Post
I wish there was a way of addressing gender and race the same as you can address a players rank and name.
Ditto. Plus info on boffs.


To the OP, yes yes and yes, I think branching dialogue with implications is always something worth aiming for. It personalises according to your character and gives some weight to yoru choices so it isn't just clicking through. You get to decide something. When it comes to locking out content, well that leads to replay value!

The only thing I wish we could do is easily have proper branching stories across multiple maps rather than having to use a set of imperfect tricks.

& Rose Tinted Mirror (Fed 31+)
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,174
# 8
09-03-2013, 10:58 PM
yeah it'd be really nice if the game would let us key off of optional objective on earlier maps, but it doesn't.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 9
09-03-2013, 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adverbero View Post
- also i would ask , do you prefer it if your dialogue always causes a significant diverging branch? giving a more unique experience, or is it enough for you just to have different ways of responding[/b]
[/color]
I imagine it would be nice to have diverged dialogue lead to different outcomes. Like you choosing Option 1 and it takes you to Map A, or choosing Option 2 and it takes you to Map B.

Right now, you can only limitedly accomplish this by branching dialogue with separate triggers on the same pathing, which leads to the end goal.

Perhaps someday the Foundry will get to a point we could make more consequences regarding the choices players make.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,696
# 10
09-03-2013, 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolninspace View Post
I wish there was a way of addressing gender and race the same as you can address a players rank and name.
What we really need (add it to Cryptic's laundry list, lol) is a rudimentary text scripting language instead of just "show current rank" and "show name" and such. I did a little modding for EV Nova once upon a time. The text scripting fields were able to switch between pairs of strings based on a tag. For example, typing (IIRC) {G "I'm a guy" "I'm a girl"} would make the text box spit out "I'm a guy" if your character was male and "I'm a girl" if the char was female. You could also toggle based on, among other things, whether given bits in your save file were turned on or off, or whether your copy of the game was registered (it was sold as shareware).

What I envision is two things. A simple [Race] dialog tag that gets replaced with "Klingon" if you're a Klingon, and a set of what amounts to if-then-else code you can key to particular races to make special text show up or not. For instance, from that diplomacy mission on Vulcan, you could add "if player is Vulcan, hang lampshade" (major paraphrase of course) to the conversations with the Vulcan historians to make them ask why you're bothering to ask them about Vulcan history, which you should know already.

The wrinkle is the generic aliens and elaborate backstories some of us come up with for them.
Vadm. Kanril Eleya, U.S.S. Andraste, Strike Team Alpha

Useful Links for Foundry Writers | "Bait and Switch" -- Fed Foundry project, Part 1 rewards-qualified!
Say no to Arc! STO standalone installer

Last edited by starswordc; 09-03-2013 at 11:36 PM.
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