Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
05-23-2011, 01:06 PM
personly i think tanking should be tweaked in cruisers currently they a tank boat (which is probaly running faw) can tank up to 4 if not more people and cannot get killed unless taken by surpise nucked by a sci ship (which leads to sci spam whineing /ragequit) or worn down in a fight of attrition (even worse if they are useing the borg set whatch them go from 1% to 100% in less then a sec)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 12
05-23-2011, 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I seem to remember comments indicating they were actually discussing about this as well.

But considering they haven't even fixed BFAW, it should be no surprise they haven't come around this either.

Still, gathering some suggestions on how to fix this (maybe for a change in a manner that the PvE crowd isn't affected even, which something like healing resistance debuffs could achieve), might be neat.
Did they mention this? Guess I missed it.

But not sure how we can change things without it affecting PvE. But one thing is for sure, these changes for PvP sure made PvE far too easy. Just look how difficult is Space PvE on Elite nowdays? The only thing that is competition is the STFs with the Borg horde.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 13
05-23-2011, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Did they mention this? Guess I missed it.

But not sure how we can change things without it affecting PvE. But one thing is for sure, these changes for PvP sure made PvE far too easy. Just look how difficult is Space PvE on Elite nowdays? The only thing that is competition is the STFs with the Borg horde.
Healing geting looked at was mentioned a long, long time ago. Around the time that we'd be getting PvP additions such as "tournament queues."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
05-23-2011, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The numbers at the end of the match mean little. Primarily serves as... male member... comparison...
enlighten me as to what then is so powerful about healing vs science vs damage that is so out of balance., sure it might be the tiniest bit out but nothing like the huge margin it seems some think

sure spike damage is more important than sustained and spike heals are required to counter spike damage, sustanined damage is mitigated by shield resistance and healing over time, while you cannot tell from the numbers what % is which how do you suggest it is balanced vs using no indicators at all ?

You mention players going from 1-100% in a second, well that does take a few ships and quick reactions to have all that happen in a second, after all if you are taking a crusier with 50k hull needing 45k+ of heals that would require an ET3 of about 10k, and aux 2 sif of some value from 4-9k perhaps an HE with a nice tick, but that would still leave you short, that then requires at least 2 ships doing the same, or a spread of ships providig healing to bring a player from 1 to 100 percent. All apparently in less than a single second

If the team is relying on a single healer or only a pair of healers the next spike from the team would be decisive, unless of course they brought nothing but medium sustained damage that extends, tss could match, but hey not the dev's fault everyone runs a tired old build

it is possible to get a cannon to about 2500dps on an apha, that would be 7.5k/second once you have hull, plus any torp/beam damage you have, so a 10k ET3, which has no resists, will give you very little milage against the damage spike and any resists you do manage to apply can be removed with a well timed snb. However a well timed snb is a very rare thing, i still see players start an attack with an snb when the player hit is under no pressure at all and can practically ignore it.

TIMING is key, i see ships explode in seconds all the time day in day out, i can only imagine how much faster they will explode once you have had healing and resisits nerf'd even further, we will be back to the the beginning when a tac/escort could spike kill the whole group in one pass and this thead will simply become, is damage unbalanced and should it be nerf'd.

At some point you have to accept 100% perfect balance is not going to happen and tbh even if it was players will still want somethigng changed because 100% balance does not fit in with the way they want to play all this required change will do is move the crying for balance to the next percieved problem they fail to find a personal solution for
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
05-23-2011, 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
You mention players going from 1-100% in a second, well that does take a few ships and quick reactions to have all that happen in a second, after all if you are taking a crusier with 50k hull needing 45k+ of heals that would require an ET3 of about 10k, and aux 2 sif of some value from 4-9k perhaps an HE with a nice tick, but that would still leave you short, that then requires at least 2 ships doing the same, or a spread of ships providig healing to bring a player from 1 to 100 percent. All apparently in less than a single second
I'm sure he didn't literally mean 1 second.

However, for example: My RSV ~29000 hull. With my Star Cruiser, I can: ET 3 (14K), Aux to SIF (5K), Hazard (12K), ET3 (14K), Aux to SIF (5K). Within 30 seconds, that's 50,000 worth of hull healing. I also have Transfer Shields 2 as well as Extend 3 to provide nearly shield resistance cap'd protection. I could have healed my RSV back to 100% nearly twice within 30 seconds. That's only 1 ship providing those heals - usually you've got the target healing themselves as well as 1 or 2 other teammates throwing something out there.
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# 16
05-23-2011, 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
I'm sure he didn't literally mean 1 second.

However, for example: My RSV ~29000 hull. With my Star Cruiser, I can: ET 3 (14K), Aux to SIF (5K), Hazard (12K), ET3 (14K), Aux to SIF (5K). Within 30 seconds, that's 50,000 worth of hull healing. I also have Transfer Shields 2 as well as Extend 3 to provide nearly shield resistance cap'd protection. I could have healed my RSV back to 100% nearly twice within 30 seconds. That's only 1 ship providing those heals - usually you've got the target healing themselves as well as 1 or 2 other teammates throwing something out there.
30 seconds is a very long time in pvp, and significantly longer than 1 second which as a short time frame gets used a lot in an attempt to have the read believe things are far worse then they actually are, where as in 30s a tac player can also run through a decent number of attack skills,

i have an assault cruiers amonst others i have have seen players destroyed dispite my throwing an aux2sif 2 ET3 Extends 3 delta 1 tss2 HE1 on them, the healing almost torn away as it lands and it comes as no surpirse they die.

if you reduced heals then pvp fleets will still dominate, the only difference will be pug matches will be over in 3 passes, while between fleets you might not get such long games but the idea that reducing heals will bring balance is false, it will simply move the focus of a problem to another issue, and thus the next OP thread will rise from the ashes of healing. and those that adapt quickly will do so and those that have to wait to see how to cope with the heal changes will get beat until they either work out what to do or work out what otehrs are doing, and i wonder where i have seen that before
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
05-23-2011, 03:15 PM
A good healer or two trumps a good escort or two. The game now is 2 healers with 2 sci and a damage dealer and the damage dealer will hardly die and unless the other team is outfitted in a similar fashion, usually not the match ends 15-2 if the other group is lucky. Though if you are good enough to either split focus or draw heals to one target then switch to another but usually the outcome is already predetermined. I agree something has to be done with huge flash healing but what exactly I am not so sure of. Maybe a binary type healing mechanic where a heal from one ship coupled with a heal from oneself or another ship does a high flash heal. The thing iss heals are not strategic enough, you just stack heals if all else fails.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
05-23-2011, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post
Healing geting looked at was mentioned a long, long time ago. Around the time that we'd be getting PvP additions such as "tournament queues."
Exactly, a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far.....

Really, given the troubles in PVP, I really think it shows how flawed the combat system has become. As others have said, we are literally on the front lines in regards to balance. And what makes it easy for us is going to make PvE 10x as easy.

As proof, just look at Space PvE on Elite.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
05-23-2011, 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
30 seconds is a very long time in pvp, and significantly longer than 1 second which as a short time frame gets used a lot in an attempt to have the read believe things are far worse then they actually are, where as in 30s a tac player can also run through a decent number of attack skills,

i have an assault cruiers amonst others i have have seen players destroyed dispite my throwing an aux2sif 2 ET3 Extends 3 delta 1 tss2 HE1 on them, the healing almost torn away as it lands and it comes as no surpirse they die.

if you reduced heals then pvp fleets will still dominate, the only difference will be pug matches will be over in 3 passes, while between fleets you might not get such long games but the idea that reducing heals will bring balance is false, it will simply move the focus of a problem to another issue, and thus the next OP thread will rise from the ashes of healing. and those that adapt quickly will do so and those that have to wait to see how to cope with the heal changes will get beat until they either work out what to do or work out what otehrs are doing, and i wonder where i have seen that before
30 seconds is quite long, you're totally right.

I think, however, the issue doesn't lie with the actual heals themselves, but resists.

And again, you're right about pugs being wiped out by PvP fleets. That's a whole 'nother issue, I believe; you can balance balance and balance all you want but you're never going to be at a point where pugs will stand against premades. Hell, even then, you can perfectly balance powers for a 1v1 or even a 2v1 situation, but multiple people on a team using the same ability will be horribly fatal. Case in point: Gravity Well, CPB, FAW, etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
05-23-2011, 05:46 PM
I've been thinking about heal/res stacking being OP (particularly in premades/teams) for a while.

There are numerous ways to re-balance those issues, the simplest that I can think of is the following:

1) HARD CAP on Resistance values! No ship can gain more than, say 40% resistance, to anything, whether from passive or active buffs. Any buff thrown at a ship already at 40% Res CAP is ignored, meaning they might be still present for their specific duration, but the game engine will stop at 40% for any calculation purposes.

Min/Max Resistance CAP threshold => from -20% to +40%
[40% is a suggestion, final CAP value and threshold can be fine-tuned by some thorough Tribble Server testing.]

2) Any Healing ability (hull/shield) must by tied to AUXILIARY power.

Bonus/malus from AUX might be as follows:

AUX 100 = 100% healing value (standard reference)
AUX > 100 = still 100% healing value, it only counts as bonus for Sci abilities (as it already is).
AUX < 100 = every 2 aux points, healing value drops by 1%

Examples:

AUX 90 = 95% healing value
AUX 80 = 90% healing value
AUX 70 = 85% healing value
AUX 60 = 80% healing value
AUX 50 = 75% healing value
...

So, an Engineering Team that does 10.000 hull healing @100 AUX, will yield only 7.500 @50 AUX.

Malus from aux < 100 shouldn't be too strong, else ships that rely only on single healing abilities (escorts => HE or ET) would be severely hampered.

List of abilities to be bound to AUX:

(Hull)
Engineering Team
Auxiliary to Structural Integrity Field (re-adjust to Standard Reference)
Hazard Emitters

(shields)
Science Team
Transfer Shield Strenght
Emergency Power to Shields

(Engineer Innate)
Miracle Worker
Rotate Shield Frequency

3) Some defensive abilities require a bit of re-scaling relative to ability LEVEL (I, II and III)

- Tactical Team
Issues: TT1 is way too efficient at rebalancing shields, rendering level II and III useless/not needed.

Shield Redistribution efficiency:
Tactical Team I = slow (half the speed of a manual shield redistribution)
Tactical Team II = medium (same as manual redistribution)
Tactical Team III = fast (double speed of manual redistribution

OR (simpler)
Assume the actual Tactical Team 1 as a "maximum reference", move it to Tactical Team 3, and scale down version 2 and 1, by some factor.

- Reverse Shield Polarity
Issues: RSP1 is way too effective, rendering version II and III useless/not needed.

Damage to Shield HP conversion:
Note: Min / Max depending on skillpoints spend in RSP related skills: Engineering Training, Shield Maintenance, Shield Performance)

Reverse Shield Polarity I = 30% / 45% Dmg to Shield hp conversion
Reverse Shield Polarity II = 45% / 60% Dmg to Shield hp conversion
Reverse Shield Polarity III = 60% / 75% Dmg to Shield hp conversion

Also, shield HP gained through RSP should spread evenly among all shield faces, not just the one being attacked.

- Extend Shield
Putting the global Hard CAP on resistances should be enough to ensure ES isn't OP anymore. Otherwise it could be tied to AUX or Shield power levels, and fine-tuned after the global re-balancing is in place.
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