Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
its pretty useless in pve and just moderately useful in pvP. i am only playing pvE so far and i think this ability is a) useful at the core of its intention" but useless while my char progresses.

for example: in lowlvl the 20%-30% we reach till commander level are pretty useful, cause most ships have resistances about 20%.

while i level up to VA, the skill gets somewhat around 70% at 50aux and unskilled. enemys STILL can only get about 20% resistances, so the skill is wasted by about 30% ...

but it still has a 2 minute cooldown!!!



my suggestion: make this skill progress different: instead of gaining much more (wasted) debuff potential just lower the cooldown of it while we progress.
____________________________
solution:
so the lt sci sensor scan has 2 minutes, but the VA one have 30seconds of Cooldown, but the debuff value only levels via cpt skilltree from standard 15% to lets say about max of 35-40% full skilled with full aux.
___________________________

at the moment, with a full specced and skilled sensor array i get around 150% anti-resistance. 120% of it are wasted ...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
08-17-2011, 10:42 AM
... It serves more than just one function you realize. Firstly it is an AoE and Secondly besides debuffing it also buffs your own stealth sight and such making it easier to detect Cloaked Ships (Not that this generally becomes useful at the range you can see them.). However, taking into account that it is an AoE alone if you buff it up with full Aux and skills it can be helpful. You should not expect a boost like Fire on My Mark that the Tacts get.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
08-17-2011, 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuu_Akagan
... It serves more than just one function you realize. Firstly it is an AoE and Secondly besides debuffing it also buffs your own stealth sight and such making it easier to detect Cloaked Ships (Not that this generally becomes useful at the range you can see them.). However, taking into account that it is an AoE alone if you buff it up with full Aux and skills it can be helpful. You should not expect a boost like Fire on My Mark that the Tacts get.
i do realize that, but stealth detection and anti cloak are pretty useless in pvE unfortunately. perhaps they could divide that ino two abilities. a realize that 30sec anti-cloak would break pvp.

i rather wanted to state, that sci-cpt abilities are much of a waste esp in pvE, while nadion inversion and eps are both useful in pvE and pvp, same as tac abilities.

but sensor scan, with about -150% resi debuff is wasted about 80% of its potential, while stealth and anticloak are totally useless in pvE.

so it makes the scichar a pvp char only. and this lack of "usefulness" makes it a very poor pvE career, besides the fact that sciablities themseves are on a very high cooldown too and are mostly useless in pvE too.

pls note: im talking about player versus enemy. i KNOW scis are worthful in pvP but i dont play pvp in any game so far. i tried it here but it doesnt interest me. i dont doubt scis usefulness in pvP, cause there, you suffer from energy drains and such and so a maxed out sensor scan isnt wasted so much as in pve.

but in pve sensor scan is sth that has a 2 minute cooldown for approx 20% debuff (thats a APbeta1) cause enemys dont have more than 20-30% resist) a stealth debuff that is useless due to nobody is cloaking at all.

perhaps it would be usefull to design 2 different sensor scans here. cause sci really plays very odd in pve and has less benefit from its cpt abilities and sci abilities too. i really tried to play a real scichar with all those nice abilities but everything i tried so far is not competitive to: "use cruiser, 8 beams, eptW3" ... even a sciship with only 6 beams and eptw2 is more powerful and fast in pve than a real scichar played the style it was supposed to play. thats very odd somehow. the most useful playstyle of a sci is to play it in a cruiser like a cruiser. and i think the reason is, that theres a lack of dmg dealing sci abilities, while tac and engineer have dmg abilities, sci chars only have abilities that incapacitate, so that would be okay if i could exploit this exposes too, but i cant. sci plays like a "pet" i have many useful abilities, that somehow would require a second ship, that would use the "doors im opening" in enemys defense.

like i said, i really tried all different playstyles with sci now and the only useful in pvE is: equip as many beams as you can, and use eptw highest rank and wait. sometimes i use syphon 3 to gain even more power.

i hope somebody understands what im trying to say. sci would be more fun, if it would be benefitial to PLAY it as a scichar. but at the moment its more benefitial to play a sci in ignorance of its scitree and play it like a cruiser.

i really miss the "yeah i overwelmed my enemy using my brain" feeling like in startrek. when a ship in startrek suffered from a "tycens rift/gravity well" its destryed, not just like oh i loose 20% hull at best ... (yeah i know a instant blowdown would be stupid to but somehow we may meet at the middle)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
08-17-2011, 11:10 AM
in addition, some sciablities are really illogical:

Tachyonbeam 3 at 125 aux deals the same dmg on 4 shields that i loose by setting weapons to 50 instead of 100 setting. u know what i mean?


its: 6 beams +eptw2 +100 weaponsetting + syphon3 is the same as 125aux, tb3, 80 weapons and lets say 2-4 beams.

its just useless and has the disadvantage of limiting my firing arc to 90 and having a high cooldown. the dmg i loose on beams is at best equal to that i gain by using tb3.

again im talking abou pvE. in pvE sci is somehow a more or less worthful petchar, without a master ^^ i plays **** and unfun.


next point: sciabilities like target subsystem are nice indeed but have somehow a disadvantage too:

example: i use target engines, that gives me more critchance on the enemy cause it cant move fast anymore, which lowers defense. so, nice, but while using it, it interrupts my standard firing sequence for about 3 seconds (3 beams) the damage i gain for 10seconds is lower than the benefit i get from more acc/more crit ....

i think this MUST be fixed ot the duration of the drain must be enhanced. it like having a 10% critbonus for 10seconds while u cant use your weapons for 3seconds ... so: you only gain 6 seconds, which of 1 is a nonfiring due to reaload. so its 5seconds of 10% crit, while loosing approx 4 beamarray firings ... thats a miscalculation unfortunately.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
08-17-2011, 05:46 PM
Okay, you really don't understand what sensor scan or other resist debuffs do. They are not counters to resistance buffs, they are resistance debuffs. That means they lower resistances, and in fact can effectively create negative resistances, meaning your target will take MORE damage.

The math if I understand it right is slightly complex, the debuff does not directly subtract from resistance buffs, it simply adds a multiplier which can counteract the multiplier from resistance.

The end result is that there is no reason not to use it, resist debuffs always increase your damage while they are active, period.


As for target subsystem attacks, they do not interrupt a full beam cycle, they modify a standard beam cycle, so that they do damage and apply the debuff. That said I'm not sure subsystem targetting is even working currently, but it in no way lowers your DPS.


Unfortunately I would agree that sci abilities in general do not stand on their own in PVE as an alternative to weapons. You can keep weapons at full power, and are advised to do so, for PVE. While you can play around with some different combos, generally beams and torps still work best for a science ship, and all your science powers still work just fine with 70ish aux power if you run high weapon power.

Shield drains in particular definitely are far more useful in PVP when people have a lot of shield resistance. When you are losing 60% damage per shot because of someone's high resists, having something that takes a big chunk from their shields despite those resists is valuable.

The thing is, PVE enemies don't really do much. They don't use many powers, and are incredibly easy to defeat by simple attrition if you use your healing powers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
08-17-2011, 08:07 PM
Quote:
and in fact can effectively create negative resistances, meaning your target will take MORE damage.
i think that was deleted (it once worked that way but they changed it, i think it was season 2 or so), there are no negative resistances anymore cause in pvp ppl stacked scichars+escort or BoP-ships with sensorscan and APbeta3 creating values around -200.
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question now is, does it work that way:

lets say a cruiser has a resist value (shown in ship-tab/defense) of lets say 60. now i use a sensor scan that does -50 resist all does this result in:

60 x(50/100)=30 resist total after debuffing the cruiser

or does it result in:

60resist all - 50 resist all debuff = 10 resist all ???

or something in between?
____

the problem in this game is at it always was: i cant see the values i actually get. i cant see the enemys real stats, and i cant see, how they change after i use something.

in fact i tested it, i see hardly any difference in dmg when using sensor scan 3 or NOT USING it in pvE. (it does around -90 actual in my scichar, and i see NO difference in my dmg)

as far as i can tell, neither APbeta 1/2/3 nor sensor scan with about -110 do anything to my dmg to ships in pve.
____________

so i must think: its a counter to resistance, that is limited by the amount of resist my enemy has got. so: an enemy has much resistance --> i see a difference in numbers or
enemy has actually NO resistances at all so sensor scan is pretty useless. its like de-buffing someone that isnt buffed yet. (eg de-buffing then means: removing an neemys buff, so if there is no buff, theres nothing to remove)
_____________

i just tested it: when i use sensor scan on borg things i see a VAST increase in dmg, from 700 beamdmg/shot up to 1200. when i use it against klingons in btran (VA) i see no increase. thats sth that supports my hypothethis: the usefulness of sensor scan is dependant on how much resist the neemy has to debuff.


a borg seems to have many resist all, lets say 30. so if i fire normal i get 700 dmg, when i use SensorScan i get 1100.
now kdf in btran: the ship has maybe 5resistall, so i get somewhat around 770 dmg normal against it and 800 with using sensor scan (cause i drained off that last 5 resist all ^^)
__________

i really would LOVE if sensor scan worked the way you guess here, but i think thats not the case (anymore)

otherwise i wouldnt start a topic to complain here. IF sensor scan worked the way you describe, i would be a very happy sci-char player.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
08-17-2011, 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
its pretty useless in pve and just moderately useful in pvP. i am only playing pvE so far and i think this ability is a) useful at the core of its intention" but useless while my char progresses.
Are you putting points in the skills that affect Sensor Scan as you level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
____

the problem in this game is at it always was: i cant see the values i actually get. i cant see the enemys real stats, and i cant see, how they change after i use something.

in fact i tested it, i see hardly any difference in dmg when using sensor scan 3 or NOT USING it in pvE. (it does around -90 actual in my scichar, and i see NO difference in my dmg)

as far as i can tell, neither APbeta 1/2/3 nor sensor scan with about -110 do anything to my dmg to ships in pve.
____________

so i must think: its a counter to resistance, that is limited by the amount of resist my enemy has got. so: an enemy has much resistance --> i see a difference in numbers or
enemy has actually NO resistances at all so sensor scan is pretty useless. its like de-buffing someone that isnt buffed yet. (eg de-buffing then means: removing an neemys buff, so if there is no buff, theres nothing to remove)
_____________

i just tested it: when i use sensor scan on borg things i see a VAST increase in dmg, from 700 beamdmg/shot up to 1200. when i use it against klingons in btran (VA) i see no increase. thats sth that supports my hypothethis: the usefulness of sensor scan is dependant on how much resist the neemy has to debuff.


a borg seems to have many resist all, lets say 30. so if i fire normal i get 700 dmg, when i use SensorScan i get 1100.
now kdf in btran: the ship has maybe 5resistall, so i get somewhat around 770 dmg normal against it and 800 with using sensor scan (cause i drained off that last 5 resist all ^^)
__________
.
The environment you're testing is uncontrolled and the conclusions you are making are merely assumptions. My suggestion for you is to find a real life individual (or two) that can be an extra set of eyes and who also has a good understanding of the game mechanics. Running a couple of powers on a borg sphere and comparing it to a Klingon ship in B'Tran is not a good test. Try it with a real life player as the test subject. Try it several times over while they are buffed. Do the same thing but also when they are unbuffed. Watch your combat logs. Compare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
Okay, you really don't understand what sensor scan or other resist debuffs do. They are not counters to resistance buffs, they are resistance debuffs. That means they lower resistances, and in fact can effectively create negative resistances, meaning your target will take MORE damage.

The math if I understand it right is slightly complex, the debuff does not directly subtract from resistance buffs, it simply adds a multiplier which can counteract the multiplier from resistance.

The end result is that there is no reason not to use it, resist debuffs always increase your damage while they are active, period.


As for target subsystem attacks, they do not interrupt a full beam cycle, they modify a standard beam cycle, so that they do damage and apply the debuff. That said I'm not sure subsystem targetting is even working currently, but it in no way lowers your DPS.


Unfortunately I would agree that sci abilities in general do not stand on their own in PVE as an alternative to weapons. You can keep weapons at full power, and are advised to do so, for PVE. While you can play around with some different combos, generally beams and torps still work best for a science ship, and all your science powers still work just fine with 70ish aux power if you run high weapon power.

Shield drains in particular definitely are far more useful in PVP when people have a lot of shield resistance. When you are losing 60% damage per shot because of someone's high resists, having something that takes a big chunk from their shields despite those resists is valuable.

The thing is, PVE enemies don't really do much. They don't use many powers, and are incredibly easy to defeat by simple attrition if you use your healing powers.
This is truth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
08-17-2011, 09:40 PM
Quote:
The environment you're testing is uncontrolled and the conclusions you are making are merely assumptions. My suggestion for you is to find a real life individual (or two) that can be an extra set of eyes and who also has a good understanding of the game mechanics. Running a couple of powers on a borg sphere and comparing it to a Klingon ship in B'Tran is not a good test.

sry but im not running in an uncotrolled area with some random skills activated ... and why should i test the effectiveness on sensor scan for pvE within a pvP map with other player controlled ships?

i play with the same ship, with same weaponenergy in both cases. i dont use eptw once and not using it on the other test. im not stupid, stop assuming that.

i just do autohit. so without using ANY abilities i wait until the enemys shields droped, then i fire a few times, doing about 7oo-200 dmg, then i hit sensor scan, and i see wow i now got 1200-500 dmg on that borg sphere.

thenafterwards i go to a kdf pvE mob. i do exactly the same, i go to the enemy, i hit it with my weapons unbuffed, just like above, i wait until shields drop, then i see: wow i do 770 -210 dmg on hull, then i hit sensor scan and i see: now i got 800-230 dmg. a rather small increase

due to the fact that the pvE mobs hardly activate anything, and even more seldom use any resist- buttons, is see now, that:

sensor scans effective additional damage is dependand on the enemys de-facto resistance it had before.
borgships had more resistance, so i had a vast increase on them by using sensor scan in case one.

kdf-pvE ships do hardly have any resistances, so i hardly see any increase by using sensor scan in case 2.



my observation is. sensor scans bonus dmg is highly dependand on the enemy im facing. due to the fact that in pvE you just face simpletons, its quite useless, cause a ship that has no resistances will get the same dmg from my phasers with, or without sensor scan used. ---- thats what im actually observing PLAYING my ship with a sensor scan that does about -120 anti-resist.
on a borgsphere there is a large usefulness, and on other ships (that obviously dont bother about defense, like the kdf-pvE mobs) it has hardly a visible effect.
im talking about "visible effect" ... i know that sensor scan HAS an effect, the question is: is it a stable effect, or as i observed it. a effect that depends on the enemys resistance.

my conlusion is, that the sci abilities are somehow stupid the way they seem to work (basing on my observations), cause the "bonus dmg" i gain is depend on the circumstances if a mob has resistances. if all pvE mob-ships HAD about 70% of resist, i would see a difference in every case, but there are ships that dont have resistances so the skill is useless.

this is sth thats only with sci-cpt abilities. they depend on the enemy. if an enemy doesnt do a certain thing, you dont need the ability at all.
eps and nadion and AP-Alpha and comabt readyness are Always usefull, independend of what the enemy is like or is doing.

subnucleonic beam in PVE is useless, due to the fact that enemys dont use any long-time buffs at all. (i only use it agains those cruisers with metaphasic shield, thats the ONLY use i have for it)

sensor scan depends on the enemys resist. if an enemy is naked, i dont need to try to put his clothes off. there is no "more than naked"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
08-17-2011, 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelOfDespair
sry but im not running in an uncotrolled area with some random skills activated ... and why should i test the effectiveness on sensor scan for pvE within a pvP map with other player controlled ships?

i play with the same ship, with same weaponenergy in both cases. i dont use eptw once and not using it on the other test. im not stupid, stop assuming that.

i just do autohit. so without using ANY abilities i wait until the enemys shields droped, then i fire a few times, doing about 7oo-200 dmg, then i hit sensor scan, and i see wow i now got 1200-500 dmg on that borg sphere.

thenafterwards i go to a kdf pvE mob. i do exactly the same, i go to the enemy, i hit it with my weapons unbuffed, just like above, i wait until shields drop, then i see: wow i do 770 -210 dmg on hull, then i hit sensor scan and i see: now i got 800-230 dmg. a rather small increase

due to the fact that the pvE mobs hardly activate anything, and even more seldom use any resist- buttons, is see now, that:

sensor scans effective additional damage is dependand on the enemys de-facto resistance it had before.
borgships had more resistance, so i had a vast increase on them by using sensor scan in case one.

kdf-pvE ships do hardly have any resistances, so i hardly see any increase by using sensor scan in case 2.



my observation is. sensor scans bonus dmg is highly dependand on the enemy im facing. due to the fact that in pvE you just face simpletons, its quite useless, cause a ship that has no resistances will get the same dmg from my phasers with, or without sensor scan used. ---- thats what im actually observing PLAYING my ship with a sensor scan that does about -120 anti-resist.
on a borgsphere there is a large usefulness, and on other ships (that obviously dont bother about defense, like the kdf-pvE mobs) it has hardly a visible effect.
im talking about "visible effect" ... i know that sensor scan HAS an effect, the question is: is it a stable effect, or as i observed it. a effect that depends on the enemys resistance.

my conlusion is, that the sci abilities are somehow stupid the way they seem to work (basing on my observations), cause the "bonus dmg" i gain is depend on the circumstances if a mob has resistances. if all pvE mob-ships HAD about 70% of resist, i would see a difference in every case, but there are ships that dont have resistances so the skill is useless.

this is sth thats only with sci-cpt abilities. they depend on the enemy. if an enemy doesnt do a certain thing, you dont need the ability at all.
eps and nadion and AP-Alpha and comabt readyness are Always usefull, independend of what the enemy is like or is doing.

subnucleonic beam in PVE is useless, due to the fact that enemys dont use any long-time buffs at all. (i only use it agains those cruisers with metaphasic shield, thats the ONLY use i have for it)

sensor scan depends on the enemys resist. if an enemy is naked, i dont need to try to put his clothes off. there is no "more than naked"
/facepalm

Who said your pressing random buttons? Not me. I didn't assume you were.

My point was you should do more testing. It's likely that you're arriving to assumptions that no one else is for a reason. A live partner could be there to correct any mistakes you might be making in your judgement.

There's nothing wrong with having someone check your work.

I don't know if anyone can help you but good luck.

You seem to be set on a Sci toon but maybe a Tac would be better for you if you're worried about Sci's being underpowered in PvE. Maybe it just isn't the right class for you. Some people never take to it. There's nothing wrong with that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
08-17-2011, 10:58 PM
Sir, do some testing with pvp minded individuals who spend hours at a time testing skills on each other to take into battle. They can really tell you the game mechancis and what works good. We all know in pvp, a timed 125 aux full power sensor scan will make a ship brittle, especially if a shield facing is done. While adding a 2nd scan make the effect even greater. While in pve you man feel your ship is underpowered, in a group environment where you have all three professions in game present and setup accordingly, you will kill live player ships easier then npc's. As a sci ship in pve, runn full power to weapons and then aux with minimum to shields and engines and just go to town killing.
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