Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
07-04-2011, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred

Not possible if 5 BoPs are constantly cloaking and decloaking and since tractor beam doesn't help against Battlecloak, i see no defence against it.

Gravity well, Sensor scan, tractorbeams (which *works* against BOPs, unless they use PH or Omage), Warpplasma.
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And thats why i don't do any PvP, just as simple...
Btw, if i see a lonely enemy, i don't need my friends to attack it, if i loose then i have no problem with that.
But calling my friends to help me, just because i COULD loose is just lame IMHO.
Ok i admit that i am old fashioned.
If I feel like it, I attack them.. If my "friends" (who often happen to be random players from my faction, that just happen to be in the same area) also attack it have nothing to do with me
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If someone who claims to be honorable, rather attacks one FED cruiser with his 5 friends and runs away if 1 of them get destroyed, then i don't think that this has something to do with "make the most out of any opportunities" IMHO.
If you promise to stop healing yourself or using RSP, when youre suspecting you might be destroyed, then sure, Ill refrain from running..

Staying to fight a target that have 10 times the amount of heals, more resists, hull and shields then you, isnt honourable.. It is stupid.
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At least those players should be honest enough and play a Ferengi serving in the KDF. lol.
Btw. calling other players a "wesley crusher" is not very kind, don't you think?


What does WWII have to do with PvP ?
And who is "we"? I don't think that you have been fighting in WWII.

Enough joking:
OT: my point was that there are certain tactics/game mechanics that are not to be changed very easily, so either one has to adapt or just don't do PvP anymore.
I mean STO is a game, and call me old-fashioned, but i think a game should be fun.
I find it very fun, both when I blow up a cruiser in 3 seconds in my escort, and when it absorbs my alphastrike without flinching.

I also find it humourous to match or surpass 4 escorts damage in a arenafight in a cruiser, using uncommon single cannons.

Quote:

Live long and prosper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
07-04-2011, 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
I find it very fun, both when I blow up a cruiser in 3 seconds in my escort, and when it absorbs my alphastrike without flinching.
I also find it humourous to match or surpass 4 escorts damage in a arenafight in a cruiser, using uncommon single cannons.
Then you have no reason to stop doing PvP at all.
Congratulations!!!

Live long and prosper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
07-04-2011, 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred
[color="DarkOrange"]
Not possible if 5 BoPs are constantly cloaking and decloaking and since tractor beam doesn't help against Battlecloak, i see no defence against it.
Charged Particle Burst counters all types of cloak (plus a hefty amount of the BoPs pathetic shields). A Subnucleonic Beam can take care entirely of any Polarize Hulls or Attack Pattern Omega to negative a Tractor Beam (if it comes up). A Gravity Well can also help immobiilze a foe. Target Subsystem Engines reduces your victim's engine power levels.

A single cruiser or a 5 man cruiser team can't do this, but a team of ships (and the Cruiser is important in this team sa well, as he will soak up or repair all the damage done by those alpha-striking BoPs). At some point, your enemy might run into the problem that he has to stick around and risk being killed, otherwise he can't kill you either.

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And thats why i don't do any PvP, just as simple...
Btw, if i see a lonely enemy, i don't need my friends to attack it, if i loose then i have no problem with that.
But calling my friends to help me, just because i COULD loose is just lame IMHO.
If you and the other guy want a duel, have a duel and don't call your friends But if you or the other guy doesn't want a duel, don't expect a duel.

Quote:
If someone who claims to be honorable, rather attacks one FED cruiser with his 5 friends and runs away if 1 of them get destroyed, then i don't think that this has something to do with "make the most out of any opportunities" IMHO.
If you start entering combat with disabled weapons and shields, and if you wait 20 seconds before you return fire and try to "open hailing frequencies" and ask for an explanation first, then you can talk about "dishonorable" Klingons. But that would still only cover a subset of your opposition, because there are also a lot of Orions, Letheans, Nausicaans and Gorn Captains that don't particularly care for Klingon honor.

But even then there is nothing suggesting that Klingon honor forbids the use of hit & run tactics (quite the contrary in fact, as the Bird of Prey's entire design seems to focus on such tactics, not just in STO) or demands everyone combat to be a balanced duel.

Maybe you are mis-guided by ancient human models of "honor", say the Samurai Code. But well, the Samurai died out, the Klingons did not. However their honor system works, it must integrate strategies and tactics that work and achieve success in war, otherwise the KDF had probably long been defeated by an unscrupelous race.

The way I would interpret it:
A Hit & Run strategy is not dishonrable, simply because you are still exposing yourself to significant risk. Combat is never without dangers.
But there is no honor to be gained by failure alone. You must fight for something - your defeat might not be complete, you might still have cost the enemy resources and bought your comrades and allies time. But you might also just die because you cannot accept your defeat, and your failure will cost your comrades and allies as well.
A retreat can be honorable if it is done to fight another day, if it is just done out of fear of fighting itself, it's cowardice and dishonorable.

But none of the KDF players are actually Klingons, so how the Klingon honor code really works doesn't have to affect their combat decisions as long as it is not put in as a game mechanic. Also, most PvPers don't claim that they are roleplaying.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
07-04-2011, 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Whoa, no reason to go all Godwin on us! :p


In the end, some tactics I can see as not liking to use or see at all. For example spawn camping aka "deployment suppression". That's really pretty lame, but it's also something really artifically created by the system, because it forces us to enter an area at a particular point. But flying together or trying to isolate your enemy, ambushing him... All that is reasonably IMO.
If we don't invoke Godwin's, how will it ever remain a law?

Yes spawn camping is unfavourable, and annoying, but I would wager you, like myself, always end up asking the question when people post here "Why were you still at your spawn point???"

What is being asked for here isn't fixing a mechanic that allows exploitation IMO, but reducing our ability to work as a coordinated team. It's not like we are talking about one person achieving this, although one person CAN counter it. These players have effectively sacrificed (if they are using higher versions at least) other very powerful skills in order to employ a very specific and somewhat risky tactic. It could easily fail. It would be just as frustrating if 4 players loaded up on BO3 and a DBB, SNBd you then hit you with all at the same time. Almost guaranteed kill. Is that also unfair and worthy of redress? No, IMO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
07-04-2011, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred
If someone who claims to be honorable, rather attacks one FED cruiser with his 5 friends and runs away if 1 of them get destroyed, then i don't think that this has something to do with "make the most out of any opportunities" IMHO.
There is nothing smart about hanging around to die. It is not honourable to be foolish. It is foolish to be foolish. Your examples are just anecdotes at best. I have engaged a whole group of enemies solo, killed one from decloak alpha, and then ran the heck out of there before the other 4 could kill me. Is that dishonourable? I call it clever. If they allow me to get away with that, all the shame is on them. And it has of course failed miserably, many times. But again, these are just anecdotes, they do not reflect the game at large.

Quote:
Btw. calling other players a "wesley crusher" is not very kind, don't you think?
"shut up wesley!"

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What does WWII have to do with PvP ?
They both involve winning through military action? Otherwise nothing.

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And who is "we"? I don't think that you have been fighting in WWII.
The royal we.

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Enough joking:
OT: my point was that there are certain tactics/game mechanics that are not to be changed very easily, so either one has to adapt or just don't do PvP anymore.
I mean STO is a game, and call me old-fashioned, but i think a game should be fun.

Live long and prosper.
PvP is fun.

Well it's more fun than going to work.

I just don't agree that the tactic is as overpowered as suggested. It is so easily countered, and could be seen as a sacrifice on their behalf, considering what other uber skills they could use in tight coordination.

Quote:
As someone who likes to play independent of others, PvP is just not my cup of tea and not fun at all.
Then "mainstream" PvP will never be up your street. PvP is explicitly team oriented. 1v1s are extraordinarily tedious events.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
07-04-2011, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificialx
There is nothing smart about hanging around to die. It is not honourable to be foolish. It is foolish to be foolish. Your examples are just anecdotes at best. I have engaged a whole group of enemies solo, killed one from decloak alpha, and then ran the heck out of there before the other 4 could kill me. Is that dishonourable? I call it clever. If they allow me to get away with that, all the shame is on them. And it has of course failed miserably, many times. But again, these are just anecdotes, they do not reflect the game at large.



"shut up wesley!"



They both involve winning through military action? Otherwise nothing.



The royal we.



PvP is fun.

Well it's more fun than going to work.

I just don't agree that the tactic is as overpowered as suggested. It is so easily countered, and could be seen as a sacrifice on their behalf, considering what other uber skills they could use in tight coordination.



Then "mainstream" PvP will never be up your street. PvP is explicitly team oriented. 1v1s are extraordinarily tedious events.
"in the right corner we have Mr Starcruiser, sporting 25 weaponspower, dual ET3 and ASIF3 - On the left, Mr Patrolcruiser, weighing in at 30 weaponspower, RSP3 and 5 hullheals.. Ready... Fight!!!"

*45 hours later*

"Mr Starcruiser persist with his futile attacks, here in round 465.. Neither combatant seems to be able to gain the upper hand... Score remain closely tied at 0-0"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
07-04-2011, 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificialx
There is nothing smart about hanging around to die. It is not honourable to be foolish. It is foolish to be foolish. Your examples are just anecdotes at best. I have engaged a whole group of enemies solo, killed one from decloak alpha, and then ran the heck out of there before the other 4 could kill me. Is that dishonourable? I call it clever. If they allow me to get away with that, all the shame is on them. And it has of course failed miserably, many times. But again, these are just anecdotes, they do not reflect the game at large.
I belive no ones sees himself as dishonorable.
I really think they should have first introduced the Romulans instead of the KDF.
(That would have been very accommodating to most KDF players IMO.)

And yes it reflects PvP as a large, because it allows such tactics in the first place.
But the devs wanted a arcade like Star Trek game and now we have it...
In my opinion, first strikes should just be a powerful battle opener, bu no one should so strong to be able to instant kill an other player (except someone sits in a Oberth Class ).

Additionally Battle cloak should be reserved to the Romulans and KDF ships should get somekind of permanent "go down fighting". I think that this would "force" players to fight more in a klingon way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificialx
"shut up wesley!"
That was funny, i'm still laughing...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificialx
They both involve winning through military action? Otherwise nothing.
Just like most other wars, don't you think?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificialx
The royal we.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificialx
Well it's more fun than going to work.
That depends on your work, my friend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificialx
Then "mainstream" PvP will never be up your street. PvP is explicitly team oriented. 1v1s are extraordinarily tedious events.
That's what i am talking about and i am not alone.
Sadly PvP could be really awesome but some elements, make it just a lame experience IMHO.


Live long and prosper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
07-04-2011, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
"in the right corner we have Mr Starcruiser, sporting 25 weaponspower, dual ET3 and ASIF3 - On the left, Mr Patrolcruiser, weighing in at 30 weaponspower, RSP3 and 5 hullheals.. Ready... Fight!!!"

*45 hours later*

"Mr Starcruiser persist with his futile attacks, here in round 465.. Neither combatant seems to be able to gain the upper hand... Score remain closely tied at 0-0"
Of course, Ship mechanics should be redone completely IMHO.
In my opinion Ships in sTO are just too extreme in what they can do, other games succeded to balance 1 vs 1 fights, why is it so hard to do in STO?

Live long and prosper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
07-04-2011, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred
Of course, Ship mechanics should be redone completely IMHO.
In my opinion Ships in sTO are just too extreme in what they can do, other games succeded to balance 1 vs 1 fights, why is it so hard to do in STO?

Live long and prosper.
Thats simple - I have yet to see teams fight one on one. It always ends in "five-on-one", just as soon as the first team catches on at least. The opening volley of any PvP match is always against one target. The Feds go for the carrier/ marauder/ veranus (no cloak), and the KDF for the escorts.

One of the reasons I love C & H so much is that the "team" is forced to split into smaller groups and hence the gameplay is much more fun as you are not being targeted by the whole opposing team at once. And when they are pumping Gravity Well + Scramble Sensors + Eject Warp Core at you ever few seconds, the concept of gameplay is reduced to you sitting at your pc, unable to do anything meanfully, watching crucial time tick by - asking yourself how the hell did you end up in such a mess.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
07-04-2011, 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred
Of course, Ship mechanics should be redone completely IMHO.
In my opinion Ships in sTO are just too extreme in what they can do, other games succeded to balance 1 vs 1 fights, why is it so hard to do in STO?

Live long and prosper.
Its quite simple if you think about it:

If a healing cruiser were balanced for a 1v1 fight acainst an escort, what happens when the same cruiser is healer in a 5 man group?

Ill answer that one for you.. His heals would be woefully inadequate.. Fully specced he would be able to barely keep himself up, and utterly useless as a grouphealer..

Thats why healing needs to be more powerful than damage (as it is now)

Now consider an escort.. His defense/heals would be tuned so a cruiser could kill him, what happens when 1-2 escorts shoot him? Instafrag
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