Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
I'd like a BoP which doesnt keep exploding when my enemy dies, its like the hull has been made out of tissue paper when I lose 30% hull points through shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
A T5 refit with 'advanced cloaking' that doesn't come out of cloak for every damn thing it does.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13 BoP
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
I want +15 power to ALL systems, since this is a universal ship, and since its a Bird of Prey, I want it to be even faster, when I come in for a strafe, and when im exiting weapons range.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
The Chang B'rel needs its cloak fixed. Otherwise I think they're great ships, and I think people shouldn't get so bent out of shape over Fire at Will. A good cruiser can tank quite well, this is true. Here's the thing: ITS SUPPOSED TO!!! These are flagships, not some podunk freighter. The Cruiser also has far inferior damage by comparison to a Bird of Prey, Raptor, Escort, etc. Anyone who says otherwise is lying or confused. Sure, it is possible to get off some decent damage with a Cruiser... but it is nothing in comparison to a Escort in rapid fire with a mass of cannons chewing through your Shields and Straight to your hull before you can click a button.

if anything, I'd like to see shields be stronger than they are across the board. Sure the battles might take longer, but as I recall from the shows and films, the Shields were your biggest line of defense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
The bop is a great ship; i've no complaints other than the lolcloak in the brel.

The big thing i have with end game ships is that they're too specialized for klingons. Consolidate the bop pilot skills, the vorcha/nehgvar skills, and make them like the carrier end game skill.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
great post it sums up all my opinions about the BoP
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by richander View Post
Points for best answer...

Seriously, though the BoP is underpowered. I'd like to see the rules changed back to what they were in november when I was playing the feds and the klingons equally and having equal challenge / success. Sadly I doubt they'll do that, but the totality of change to the rules has dramatically shifted the balance to feds and away from klingons generally and the BoP in particular.

Some of it is very subtle:
a) Fixing the leadership trait on humans means that Feds in the know now have all-human space crews that do great healing.

b) Introducing borg gear that heals on a percentage of shots recieved means that cannon rapid fire is more likely to trigger the proc and thus has become less effective.

c) Increasing the number of ways that device slots can be used has favoured cruiser users and hurt the BoP. For example, it has effectively nerfed the supposed maneuver advantage of a BoP, since cruisers can easily use AtD and deuterium. Seriously, try flying your cruiser like an escort sometime using this trick. All ships should have four slots if they want any pretense of balance. (Not that I didn't warn about this on tribble, but the fed cruiser lovers drooled.)

d) Making every ship a carrier of romulan fighters has lessened the relevance of klingon carriers, while turning PVP into a poor Star Wars knock off. I switched to CSV to fight the fighter and mine spam, but that makes for a marked reduction in dps on my BoP. I can't stress how much giving fighters to every ship was a huge mistake. Fighters are a space opera fantasy with no place in science fiction morality plays. Paramount made a mistake adding them to Star Trek canon for this simple truth; The lack of a difference in medium between air and sea means that you can't cut and paste naval air concepts into a "tall ships" space combat simulation, without it either "feeling" wrong or becoming unbalanced.

e) FAW is just too potent. Cannon users are non-competative now, and the klingon ships all pay in hitpoints for the right to carry cannons.

f) The resistance debuff nerf that happened back in december hit escorts and bops particularily hard, since they use APB and are more likely to use tac officers or science officers. Nagorik did a good post on that a while back, the upshot being that the change from APB, FOMM, and SS debuffing a percentage to only debuffing points effectively means that instead of a 90% maximum debuff for my tac officer, suddenly I was getting single digit results. ATD is a cruiser skill (now that it has been fixed), since you receive fire with it, while APB is a BoP skill since you use it from decloak. ATD boosts resist more than APB debuffs it, plus it gives an effect back at your attacker. BoPs (and escorts with cloaks) are the loser.

g) Klingon player skill has decreased markedly. This is in part because experienced klingons started moving to their fed toons as faction balance got farther out of line, but mostly because there are a lot more people leveling up in PVE and not developing the same PVP expertise. I now see foolish klingons who don't team up just as much as I do feds. I mean really... even if you are a complete egotist who wants to pretend you don't need anyone else, why not give me the chance to throw some active healing around. You won't notice in the heat of battle, and I'll be better off for you not dying so much. Win-Win...

h) Universal stations no longer add to combat capability. Let's face it. No one switches bridge officer layout during a battle. At most I'll swap a tac officer with CRF for another with CSV, and I can do that in an escort. But it's simply inconceivable that I would modify the number of officers of each type in response to my opponents. The need for hot keys and the way the game handles keybinding makes this an impossibility. So there is no value in battle for the BoPs universal "flexibility". If I come in with a commander tac, two science lieutenants, and a lieutenant commander of engineering, I'm not switching to my heal BoP or Science BoP loadouts in mid battle. That's what my other two klingon toons are for.

So as new fed ships are added with new officer combinations, the value for a BoP in being universal disappears. Fed ships will eventually be able to arrive in any configuration that a BoP could bring, and do it with an extra ensign. The only real advantage is to cryptic, since they don't have to produce as many new ships for the klingons as they do for the feds. Yet we pay for universal slots by having only eleven officer powers.

i) Finally, the biggest hurt to the BoP is probably the addition of so many other ships without cloaking devices. The number of non-cloaking klingon ships has meant an end to the ambush style of play that was so much fun for me as both a BoP and a fed. Klingon fleets no longer practice coordinated cloaking attacks and feds no longer need worry about defending against them, since there is always a decloaked target to perform an unthinking charge against. This is boring. It was probably on the wish list of every newbie fed who didn't want to take his licks learning to fight at the same level as klingon pilots. Even as experienced PVPers were saying the feds had the advantage, most new feds were avoiding PVP because of klingon premades that could simply slaughter them. However the problem was the way teaming and premades were handled and not the suspense of the ambushes. They addressed the wrong issue and the BoP (and PVP) got downgraded. If every other klingon, gorn, and orion ship had a cloak then the BoP would do better.


So to sum it up and answer the question, I want a balanced BoP. I think two more device slots and a universal ensign would be the minimum.

For a bonus;
- Fixing FAW is already on their to do list, but they need to upgrade APB / FOMM, then boost SS while decreasing the firepower of photonic fleet a notch.
- an ensign level cannon power that doesn't share cooldown with the team skills would help as well.
- Give every current trait a dual capacity, so that each trait effects ground and space in some way. The current system with only humans, borg, and the old saurians having traits that effect space combat is imbalanced.
This is fun and all, but last time i checked, Feds always loose! KDF always premade and are more orginized, only a Fed Premade can win in PvP! KDFs pwn, they have better ships ATM, but bird of pray needs more actual power! Birds of pray should get a passive 30% dmg buff. Or maybe give birds of pray something that reduces their targets heals significantly! Say, I heal for 13980, maybe that will get decreased to 7650 for 7 seconds after the bird of pray attacks, that way they cant insta heal, maybe a "Cripple" ability for BOPs, this will make them useful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenMirror
This is fun and all, but last time i checked, Feds always loose! KDF always premade and are more orginized, only a Fed Premade can win in PvP! KDFs pwn, they have better ships ATM, but bird of pray needs more actual power! Birds of pray should get a passive 30% dmg buff. Or maybe give birds of pray something that reduces their targets heals significantly! Say, I heal for 13980, maybe that will get decreased to 7650 for 7 seconds after the bird of pray attacks, that way they cant insta heal, maybe a "Cripple" ability for BOPs, this will make them useful.
Aside from the better ship part i agree completely. i will gladly explain why Fed vessels are better below.
1-hull points
2-variety
3- the KDF counterparts to vessels such as the Dkr and Varonious rarely match up
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenMirror
This is fun and all, but last time i checked, Feds always loose.
Seems we have different experience then. While I'm not playing as much as I used to, it's been months since I've been on a loosing fed arena PuG. Premades are as tough as ever, and the klingon fleets field some great ones, but I haven't run into one in a long time. Luck of the draw perhaps, but are there as many out there as there used to be? Or are they just not showing up as much because of FAW, underpowered BoPs and hobbled carriers that have to deal with reman fighter spam?

Feds lose more often in cap and hold, because the victory conditions favour cloaked ships, and many fed PuG players seem to assume the loss and just concentrate on killing things. But even there I find that feds do better than they have in a long time (for many of the reasons I've already expressed).

Still, the bottom line is that I want to go back to winning as often in my BoPs as I do in my fed ships. However they choose to kick up the lethality or survivability of the BoP it should be a high priority, because BoPs (and carriers) are what make klingons a unique experience.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
06-09-2011, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlordthor View Post
I don't think the problem is that we don't deal enough damage, it's that they heal it too rapidly, I can tear up science ships, tactical ships, and some engineers(rarely), with a single pass with my full buffs.
Ive even destroyed ships that had full shields and hull with my alpha strike attack flyby if they didn't have good defensive buffs up, in kerrat, and no the Borg were not on them at the time. In matches I can do the same but they are constantly looking for attacks then so it's not as easy.
In matches I still dO ablot of damage, but heals are way too overpowered, 1v1 on some cruisers, and I am guarenteed tolose the fight, I cant match their heals, and they still deliver good damage, often, just not as high.
In star trek single passes dont destroy ships, typically, but neither do they heal up damage in a few seconds, shields take time to recharge as well. They need to worlk on the balance between healing and damage, not give us more damage because then those one pass kills become common occurrences, and if they survive they heal up everything from 10% in 3-5 seconds. Lowering the rate of healing and maybe making it more drawn out slow heals would be the way to go.
This is true. The BoP is not so much weak as it is now outclassed by both healing and other newer ships brought into the game in relation to the inherent handicaps the BoP was given to offset its advantages.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by richander View Post
Seriously, though the BoP is underpowered. I'd like to see the rules changed back to what they were in november when I was playing the feds and the klingons equally and having equal challenge / success. Sadly I doubt they'll do that, but the totality of change to the rules has dramatically shifted the balance to feds and away from klingons generally and the BoP in particular.
I agree. The BoP needs a once-over to ensure it is up-to-date with the changes brought to the game. Some of its heavy handicaps may not be needed any longer or may be due for a lessening of thier parameters.
An increase in HULL and SHIELDS to HULL(27900) and SHIELDS (4500) for the Hegh'ta would be nice.


Quote:
a) Fixing the leadership trait on humans means that Feds in the know now have all-human space crews that do great healing.
How is it broken?
Being "in the know" on a traits can applly to those whom use Luck, Accuracy and other PvP space traits that are known for thier boosts to pvp performance.


Quote:
b) Introducing borg gear that heals on a percentage of shots recieved means that cannon rapid fire is more likely to trigger the proc and thus has become less effective.
I wonder if the same holds true for BFAW?

Quote:
c) Increasing the number of ways that device slots can be used has favoured cruiser users and hurt the BoP. For example, it has effectively nerfed the supposed maneuver advantage of a BoP, since cruisers can easily use AtD and deuterium. Seriously, try flying your cruiser like an escort sometime using this trick. All ships should have four slots if they want any pretense of balance. (Not that I didn't warn about this on tribble, but the fed cruiser lovers drooled.)
Possibly an issue, but this Combo is not a full time ability in that it has a CD for both power/device involved so the BoP should still hold the advantage in handling.
Not that I would object to 2 more device slots on my Heg'ta.


Quote:
d) Making every ship a carrier of romulan fighters has lessened the relevance of klingon carriers, while turning PVP into a poor Star Wars knock off. I switched to CSV to fight the fighter and mine spam, but that makes for a marked reduction in dps on my BoP. I can't stress how much giving fighters to every ship was a huge mistake. Fighters are a space opera fantasy with no place in science fiction morality plays. Paramount made a mistake adding them to Star Trek canon for this simple truth; The lack of a difference in medium between air and sea means that you can't cut and paste naval air concepts into a "tall ships" space combat simulation, without it either "feeling" wrong or becoming unbalanced.
Not sure the revelance to BoPs, but I agree that the Carrier has suffered from the "fighter pets" appearance ingame. I say buff the carrier back to its "buffed" state and leave the carrier pets as they are.

Quote:
e) FAW is just too potent. Cannon users are non-competative now, and the klingon ships all pay in hitpoints for the right to carry cannons.
DAMNED GOOD POINT

Quote:
f) The resistance debuff nerf that happened back in december hit escorts and bops particularily hard, since they use APB and are more likely to use tac officers or science officers. Nagorik did a good post on that a while back, the upshot being that the change from APB, FOMM, and SS debuffing a percentage to only debuffing points effectively means that instead of a 90% maximum debuff for my tac officer, suddenly I was getting single digit results. ATD is a cruiser skill (now that it has been fixed), since you receive fire with it, while APB is a BoP skill since you use it from decloak. ATD boosts resist more than APB debuffs it, plus it gives an effect back at your attacker. BoPs (and escorts with cloaks) are the loser.
I must read more of Naggaroks post on this. DO you have a link?

Quote:
g) Klingon player skill has decreased markedly. This is in part because experienced klingons started moving to their fed toons as faction balance got farther out of line, but mostly because there are a lot more people leveling up in PVE and not developing the same PVP expertise. I now see foolish klingons who don't team up just as much as I do feds. I mean really... even if you are a complete egotist who wants to pretend you don't need anyone else, why not give me the chance to throw some active healing around. You won't notice in the heat of battle, and I'll be better off for you not dying so much. Win-Win...
True

Quote:
h) Universal stations no longer add to combat capability. Let's face it. No one switches bridge officer layout during a battle. At most I'll swap a tac officer with CRF for another with CSV, and I can do that in an escort. But it's simply inconceivable that I would modify the number of officers of each type in response to my opponents. The need for hot keys and the way the game handles keybinding makes this an impossibility. So there is no value in battle for the BoPs universal "flexibility". If I come in with a commander tac, two science lieutenants, and a lieutenant commander of engineering, I'm not switching to my heal BoP or Science BoP loadouts in mid battle. That's what my other two klingon toons are for.

So as new fed ships are added with new officer combinations, the value for a BoP in being universal disappears. Fed ships will eventually be able to arrive in any configuration that a BoP could bring, and do it with an extra ensign. The only real advantage is to cryptic, since they don't have to produce as many new ships for the klingons as they do for the feds. Yet we pay for universal slots by having only eleven officer powers.
Time for a U-slot Ensign BOff placement and/or and increase in HULL/SHIELDS.

Quote:
i) Finally, the biggest hurt to the BoP is probably the addition of so many other ships without cloaking devices. The number of non-cloaking klingon ships has meant an end to the ambush style of play that was so much fun for me as both a BoP and a fed. Klingon fleets no longer practice coordinated cloaking attacks and feds no longer need worry about defending against them, since there is always a decloaked target to perform an unthinking charge against. This is boring. It was probably on the wish list of every newbie fed who didn't want to take his licks learning to fight at the same level as klingon pilots. Even as experienced PVPers were saying the feds had the advantage, most new feds were avoiding PVP because of klingon premades that could simply slaughter them. However the problem was the way teaming and premades were handled and not the suspense of the ambushes. They addressed the wrong issue and the BoP (and PVP) got downgraded. If every other klingon, gorn, and orion ship had a cloak then the BoP would do better.
I kinda disagree while still agreeing. The fault also lies in the loss of KDF experienced OLD TIMERS and the influx of new ALTing KDFers not learning the tricks of the trade in PvP to make for effective and deadly KDF pugs.


Quote:
So to sum it up and answer the question, I want a balanced BoP. I think two more device slots and a universal ensign would be the minimum.
Yes, plus a third rear weapon slot.


Quote:
For a bonus;
- Fixing FAW is already on their to do list, but they need to upgrade APB / FOMM, then boost SS while decreasing the firepower of photonic fleet a notch.
I agree;

Ability RanksAbility/User Rank CD SPR Ability Effects- Base Skill (Max Skill)
Rank I: Lieutenant 30s 100 Grants Attack Pattern Beta I for 10 sec
to target: Applies Attack Pattern Beta I to target
-12 (24) All Damage resistance for 5 sec
-45 (90) Stealth strength for 5 sec

Rank II: Lt. Commander 30s 150 225 Grants Attack Pattern Beta II for 10 sec
to target: Applies Attack Pattern Beta II to target
-16 (32) All Damage resistance for 5 sec
-60 (120) Stealth strength for 5 sec

Rank III: Commander 30s 200 300 Grants Attack Pattern Beta III for 10 sec
to target: Applies Attack Pattern Beta III to target
-20 (40) All Damage resistance for 5 sec
-75 (150) Stealth strength for 5 sec


Lower the CD to 20seconds or increase the damageResist debuff to - 16(32), -20(40), -24(48) or increase the granted time limit to 15seconds and make the debuff effect shields as well as hull.

Fire On MY Mark (space)
Ability/User Rank CD SPR Ability Effects
Rank I: 120s - - -22 All Damage resistance for 30 sec
-67 Stealth strength for 30 sec

Rank II: 120s - - -X All Damage resistance for X sec
-X Stealth strength for X sec

Rank III: 120s - - -X All Damage resistance for X sec
-X Stealth strength for X sec


Decrease the CD to 60seconds

Quote:
- Give every current trait a dual capacity, so that each trait effects ground and space in some way. The current system with only humans, borg, and the old saurians having traits that effect space combat is imbalanced.

I agree
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