Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 What do we want in a BOP
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
I ask you as fellow warriors, what is it you want out of your BOP? what i want is essentially what we saw in the great battles of DS9. i want to be able to fly along the hull of a ship 15 times my size strafing his hull with disruptors and watching him go boom in my rear view mirror.... is this the general consensus?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
maybe not have them explode behind you, but I definitely want to make hit-and-run a viable tactic. Right now, you can de-cloak, hit a cruiser, re-cloak, and in 2 seconds they have 100% shields and health again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
I wouldn't mind a third rear weapon slot on the tier 5's. I'd like a third turret for a tad more DPS, and the ability to swap out for a tractor mine launcher whenever I manage to get in to do KA.

it would be nice if our Hit-and-run tactics did more damage. it is a "Battle Cloak" after all, if I decloak and unload on my target with all I have before hitting the after burners and vanishing into the night I'd like it to have a use. Did PvP test against a fleetie of mine in a star cruiser. After a few minutes of snickering as I decloaked just long enough to pop off a torpedo and having him g "what was that?" we did a serious "Alpha strike test." my BoP, with its decloak buff. alpha, omega, weapon battery, and all sorts of tack buffs like rapid fire and high yield got an SC down to 83%. But this required me standing still and him not poping anything to heal himself in the process. At the same time after he'd healed, he buffed and hit me. down to 30% hull. (thought i'd blow up but hey more power to me).

Anyway, despite my complaints as I sit here I recall the purpose of the BoP. Packs. We need to work with other ships. I decloak, hit a ship, bring its facing down, recloak, and while it ponders where I am the Negvar I brought with me introduces its weak facing to a world of paaaain.

BoPs promote teamwork.

it's brilliant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor_Forthright View Post
I wouldn't mind a third rear weapon slot on the tier 5's. I'd like a third turret for a tad more DPS, and the ability to swap out for a tractor mine launcher whenever I manage to get in to do KA.

it would be nice if our Hit-and-run tactics did more damage. it is a "Battle Cloak" after all, if I decloak and unload on my target with all I have before hitting the after burners and vanishing into the night I'd like it to have a use. Did PvP test against a fleetie of mine in a star cruiser. After a few minutes of snickering as I decloaked just long enough to pop off a torpedo and having him g "what was that?" we did a serious "Alpha strike test." my BoP, with its decloak buff. alpha, omega, weapon battery, and all sorts of tack buffs like rapid fire and high yield got an SC down to 83%. But this required me standing still and him not poping anything to heal himself in the process. At the same time after he'd healed, he buffed and hit me. down to 30% hull. (thought i'd blow up but hey more power to me).

Anyway, despite my complaints as I sit here I recall the purpose of the BoP. Packs. We need to work with other ships. I decloak, hit a ship, bring its facing down, recloak, and while it ponders where I am the Negvar I brought with me introduces its weak facing to a world of paaaain.

BoPs promote teamwork.

it's brilliant.
I'd like to ask something if you don't mind:
Were you both standing still during both rounds of fire-testing?
If you were, it was indeed not entirely representative.
When both ships are moving the BoP has a better chance to be missed due to its higher defensive bonus.
There was a saying from the "inventor" of the historic battlecruiser concept, Sea Lord John Fisher "Speed is armor".
Even though history did not entirey agree with him, at least in this game there is some truth to it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
I don't think the problem is that we don't deal enough damage, it's that they heal it too rapidly, I can tear up science ships, tactical ships, and some engineers(rarely), with a single pass with my full buffs.

Ive even destroyed ships that had full shields and hull with my alpha strike attack flyby if they didn't have good defensive buffs up, in kerrat, and no the Borg were not on them at the time. In matches I can do the same but they are constantly looking for attacks then so it's not as easy.

In matches I still dO ablot of damage, but heals are way too overpowered, 1v1 on some cruisers, and I am guarenteed tolose the fight, I cant match their heals, and they still deliver good damage, often, just not as high.

In star trek single passes dont destroy ships, typically, but neither do they heal up damage in a few seconds, shields take time to recharge as well. They need to worlk on the balance between healing and damage, not give us more damage because then those one pass kills become common occurrences, and if they survive they heal up everything from 10% in 3-5 seconds. Lowering the rate of healing and maybe making it more drawn out slow heals would be the way to go.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DodgeHopper View Post
The Chang B'rel needs its cloak fixed. Otherwise I think they're great ships, and I think people shouldn't get so bent out of shape over Fire at Will. A good cruiser can tank quite well, this is true. Here's the thing: ITS SUPPOSED TO!!! These are flagships, not some podunk freighter. The Cruiser also has far inferior damage by comparison to a Bird of Prey, Raptor, Escort, etc. Anyone who says otherwise is lying or confused. Sure, it is possible to get off some decent damage with a Cruiser... but it is nothing in comparison to a Escort in rapid fire with a mass of cannons chewing through your Shields and Straight to your hull before you can click a button.

if anything, I'd like to see shields be stronger than they are across the board. Sure the battles might take longer, but as I recall from the shows and films, the Shields were your biggest line of defense.
I wouldn't mind higher shielding all around, but the imbalance between healing and damage on these ships means I cannot take them down as is, but upping the overall shielding and lowering the healing is a possible fix to the problem.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
How many of you saw the TNG episode where picard and a few others were turned into little kids. if you recall 2 Br'el class BoPs were able to breach the enterprises shields almost immediately with an ambush, and in redemption i think it was, 2 BoPs were able to criple the Bortas, a vorcha class cruiser before being driven off by a third BoP.

BoP firepower has always been devastating, but with the rate of healing on these cruisers it takes loads of focused firepower and stuns to even have a shot at downing them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
Bop with Photonic Cannon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
I want to see one that will carry a whale.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-09-2011, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChancellorMartok View Post
I want to see one that will carry a whale.
Points for best answer...

Seriously, though the BoP is underpowered. I'd like to see the rules changed back to what they were in november when I was playing the feds and the klingons equally and having equal challenge / success. Sadly I doubt they'll do that, but the totality of change to the rules has dramatically shifted the balance to feds and away from klingons generally and the BoP in particular.

Some of it is very subtle:
a) Fixing the leadership trait on humans means that Feds in the know now have all-human space crews that do great healing.

b) Introducing borg gear that heals on a percentage of shots recieved means that cannon rapid fire is more likely to trigger the proc and thus has become less effective.

c) Increasing the number of ways that device slots can be used has favoured cruiser users and hurt the BoP. For example, it has effectively nerfed the supposed maneuver advantage of a BoP, since cruisers can easily use AtD and deuterium. Seriously, try flying your cruiser like an escort sometime using this trick. All ships should have four slots if they want any pretense of balance. (Not that I didn't warn about this on tribble, but the fed cruiser lovers drooled.)

d) Making every ship a carrier of romulan fighters has lessened the relevance of klingon carriers, while turning PVP into a poor Star Wars knock off. I switched to CSV to fight the fighter and mine spam, but that makes for a marked reduction in dps on my BoP. I can't stress how much giving fighters to every ship was a huge mistake. Fighters are a space opera fantasy with no place in science fiction morality plays. Paramount made a mistake adding them to Star Trek canon for this simple truth; The lack of a difference in medium between air and sea means that you can't cut and paste naval air concepts into a "tall ships" space combat simulation, without it either "feeling" wrong or becoming unbalanced.

e) FAW is just too potent. Cannon users are non-competative now, and the klingon ships all pay in hitpoints for the right to carry cannons.

f) The resistance debuff nerf that happened back in december hit escorts and bops particularily hard, since they use APB and are more likely to use tac officers or science officers. Nagorik did a good post on that a while back, the upshot being that the change from APB, FOMM, and SS debuffing a percentage to only debuffing points effectively means that instead of a 90% maximum debuff for my tac officer, suddenly I was getting single digit results. ATD is a cruiser skill (now that it has been fixed), since you receive fire with it, while APB is a BoP skill since you use it from decloak. ATD boosts resist more than APB debuffs it, plus it gives an effect back at your attacker. BoPs (and escorts with cloaks) are the loser.

g) Klingon player skill has decreased markedly. This is in part because experienced klingons started moving to their fed toons as faction balance got farther out of line, but mostly because there are a lot more people leveling up in PVE and not developing the same PVP expertise. I now see foolish klingons who don't team up just as much as I do feds. I mean really... even if you are a complete egotist who wants to pretend you don't need anyone else, why not give me the chance to throw some active healing around. You won't notice in the heat of battle, and I'll be better off for you not dying so much. Win-Win...

h) Universal stations no longer add to combat capability. Let's face it. No one switches bridge officer layout during a battle. At most I'll swap a tac officer with CRF for another with CSV, and I can do that in an escort. But it's simply inconceivable that I would modify the number of officers of each type in response to my opponents. The need for hot keys and the way the game handles keybinding makes this an impossibility. So there is no value in battle for the BoPs universal "flexibility". If I come in with a commander tac, two science lieutenants, and a lieutenant commander of engineering, I'm not switching to my heal BoP or Science BoP loadouts in mid battle. That's what my other two klingon toons are for.

So as new fed ships are added with new officer combinations, the value for a BoP in being universal disappears. Fed ships will eventually be able to arrive in any configuration that a BoP could bring, and do it with an extra ensign. The only real advantage is to cryptic, since they don't have to produce as many new ships for the klingons as they do for the feds. Yet we pay for universal slots by having only eleven officer powers.

i) Finally, the biggest hurt to the BoP is probably the addition of so many other ships without cloaking devices. The number of non-cloaking klingon ships has meant an end to the ambush style of play that was so much fun for me as both a BoP and a fed. Klingon fleets no longer practice coordinated cloaking attacks and feds no longer need worry about defending against them, since there is always a decloaked target to perform an unthinking charge against. This is boring. It was probably on the wish list of every newbie fed who didn't want to take his licks learning to fight at the same level as klingon pilots. Even as experienced PVPers were saying the feds had the advantage, most new feds were avoiding PVP because of klingon premades that could simply slaughter them. However the problem was the way teaming and premades were handled and not the suspense of the ambushes. They addressed the wrong issue and the BoP (and PVP) got downgraded. If every other klingon, gorn, and orion ship had a cloak then the BoP would do better.


So to sum it up and answer the question, I want a balanced BoP. I think two more device slots and a universal ensign would be the minimum.

For a bonus;
- Fixing FAW is already on their to do list, but they need to upgrade APB / FOMM, then boost SS while decreasing the firepower of photonic fleet a notch.
- an ensign level cannon power that doesn't share cooldown with the team skills would help as well.
- Give every current trait a dual capacity, so that each trait effects ground and space in some way. The current system with only humans, borg, and the old saurians having traits that effect space combat is imbalanced.
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