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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
The Bird of Prey is a unique ship with a lot going for it. It's the most maneuverable craft in the game, it has exclusive access to the potentially battle-changing 'battle cloak' and it has universal bridge officer slots. Of course it pays for each of these three advantages with the loss of a rear gun mount, the loss of an ensign boff station and a hull that has been described as 'cardboard.' So far no problems, a group of positives balanced by a group of negatives. This is just good game design.

Well, three Federation ships have been introduced that have unique hybrid bridge officer set ups. The perfectly reasonable Klingon response is to suggest universal Bridge Officer spots be placed on their ships, at the ensign spot to allow their limited number of ships the same flexibility given to the Federation via their larger number, at the Lieutenant Commander spot to allow them even greater flexibility than we see with the current crop of Federation ships, or in some cases both. My own only semi-humble suggest of officer station conversion kits would make both sides equally flexible and allow people greater choice in what ship they fly.

But the inevitable trend of these new ships and balancing suggestions is clear. The BoP's flexibility is rapidly dwindling as an advantage. So how far do things have to slide before the BoP's versatility cost becomes excessive?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermbot View Post
The Bird of Prey is a unique ship with a lot going for it. It's the most maneuverable craft in the game, it has exclusive access to the potentially battle-changing 'battle cloak' and it has universal bridge officer slots. Of course it pays for each of these three advantages with the loss of a rear gun mount, the loss of an ensign boff station and a hull that has been described as 'cardboard.' So far no problems, a group of positives balanced by a group of negatives. This is just good game design.

Well, three Federation ships have been introduced that have unique hybrid bridge officer set ups. The perfectly reasonable Klingon response is to suggest universal Bridge Officer spots be placed on their ships, at the ensign spot to allow their limited number of ships the same flexibility given to the Federation via their larger number, at the Lieutenant Commander spot to allow them even greater flexibility than we see with the current crop of Federation ships, or in some cases both. My own only semi-humble suggest of officer station conversion kits would make both sides equally flexible and allow people greater choice in what ship they fly.

But the inevitable trend of these new ships and balancing suggestions is clear. The BoP's flexibility is rapidly dwindling as an advantage. So how far do things have to slide before the BoP's versatility cost becomes excessive?
In a way having uni-boff stations on other ships as well as on the BoP might be nice, but it does make the BoP as a ship less interesting. I for one play BoP because of its looks and most importantly uni-boff’s and to a lesser degree its turn-rate. However if a Raptor or BattleCruiser had similar uni-boff’s I would probably use one of those simply because it has a stronger hull and 1 or 2 more weapons to fire.

As for the conversion kits… I think it might actually be a good idea, depending on how it is implemented.
My thought would be to:
Firstly remove the uni-boff’s (and let the BoP have its Ensign station)
Secondly allow players to adjust the boff stations by using honor or merits to buy a different existing layout or self created layout that at least has 1 tactical, 1 engineering and 1 science station.
Perhaps allow 1 free change of the boff layout after you are allowed a new ship (after your promotion) and charge honor or merits for any changes after that.
Klingons recycle their ships until they fall apart from simply flying straight so from that point of view it would not be strange to see alterations in ships, also we know that Klingon ships are supposedly versatile and especially the BoP that has to be scout, raider, cargoship to transport whales… Whatever the need is at that point.
Not sure how it would work for Fed ships… Although might would be fun seeing an Intrepid with Galaxy boff setup.

It would allow people to play with the ship they like most, with the bridge setup they like most. Good Idea Jermbot
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
I'd spend merits to change the layout, but I can't thnk it would be cheap. If a respec cost 30k merits, what would something like this cost?

Of course, respec cost is an entirely different thing, I know they just want to sell respecs in the store, but just changing torpedo damage type from Photon to Quantum is 30k, to move 9 points. So based on that idea, something like a change kit would be 50k merits. Too much grinding for me to get merits for that.

Besides, I like the BoP as is. The lack of that ensign slot doesn't bother me. I ususally don't have anything I need to put there anyway.

Plus, in my opinion, people will find a way to exploit things when you give them the options to choose the ship layout. That is why the BoP is absent the ensign slot in the first place, so you have to take a penalty to choose your own.

The weaker ship stats comes from having the Battle Cloak.

One thing I'd like to see, is a console that only works on BoP ships, that gives you Battle Cloak. That way you can have regular old cloak if you choose. The console would give a reduction to hull and shield, but give the battle cloak skill. If you use it, you end up like you would now, if you don't, you get a regular cloak and your stats back. Add a universal console slot to the ship, to put that console in or use it for any other console you choose. Simply state on the cloak console it HAS to go into the universal console slot.

I personally think the BoP can stand on it own against most escorts, and my build can tear down a Cruiser if he isn't ready for an alpha strike. Sci ships I avoid, simply because they carry too many "can't get away" tricks these days. Most of the BoP captains I know agree with me that we don't see why everyone seems to think the BoP is suddenly weak. The only BoP people can complain about is the B'Rel. I have seen BoP's tank 3 ships at once, play healer and of course alpha strike kill.

I personally don't want to see much in the way of changes for the BoP. I think it's probably the only ship that is really "well designed". It can fill nearly any role needed for the KDF, and that is fitting of the KDF. They don't use a ton of different ships to do the same thing, or a ton to do different things. They use a few ships to do many things. So far the devs have held to that. I expect them to continue adding non-klingon ship types for the KDF instead of more klingon ships. We may see some retrofits, or some way to change our loadouts. Maybe see the Raptor-Q or the Vor'Cha-X as some variants, but they will all be essentially the same with different loadouts and minor stat changes.

I don't think the KDF would benefit from a dozen different ships like the FEDs have. Honestly, I think that long list the FEDs have hurt them. Each ship has changes that make you have to learn to fly each one effectively. The KDF can generally just jump in one and go.

Leave my BoP alone!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
The versatility becomes a non issue once your survivability hits nearly 0, we start at nearly 0 as BoPs. our survivability is the battle cloak, and to be perfectly honest that is the main reason i fly BoP. the BoP aggravates feds and allows for more "mind games" than any other ship class.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12guageshotgun
The versatility becomes a non issue once your survivability hits nearly 0, we start at nearly 0 as BoPs. our survivability is the battle cloak, and to be perfectly honest that is the main reason i fly BoP. the BoP aggravates feds and allows for more "mind games" than any other ship class.
It also helps distract them from the Death Star... i mean Guramba.

Back when I flew a BoP I used the battle cloak quite effectively. In fact... you can see here that its very useful in getting right up underneath the enemy if they're not paying attention or lack a science. Which can be quite effective when your team goes in from the front and they focus their shileds forward only to have you eat through their weakened rear flank. Thats what I loved about the BoP, its stealth, its why even though I have a Guramba I keep the IKS Dakara in dry dock, just in case I wanna go Solid Sna... Solid Targ on someone in space.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
The bop well always be our bread and butter ship, the battle cloak drives the feds nuts. We can pop in and out as we please and cause alot damage and recloak. The Uni slots make the feds wonder what they are facing. Even with all the new feds ships we still are most damaging and multi tasking ship in the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
I haven't gotten far enough to consider it, but I imagine the ability to switch from, say, a dps-focused attack BoP to an engineer-heavy stealth healer or tricks and debuffs science-heavy ship without switching ships (and, heck, even during the same fight) gives BoP possibilities completely unavailable to any other ship type in the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahinder
I haven't gotten far enough to consider it, but I imagine the ability to switch from, say, a dps-focused attack BoP to an engineer-heavy stealth healer or tricks and debuffs science-heavy ship without switching ships (and, heck, even during the same fight) gives BoP possibilities completely unavailable to any other ship type in the game.
That seems to be the big misconception that fed players have for bops, that everyone has 3 or more dif setups, and that they change them on the fly routinely. While I always have a second bo for one or two of my stations to adapt to certain situations, Because of how I'm spec'd, switching my bops entire role just isn't effective. To be honest, I rarely switch out my CO slot for anything other than a tac officer, and my LTC slot for anything other than a sci. Any one can have reserve BO's for certain situations.

You can only hold so many BO's, spec into so many things, be equipped to do so much, and in my experience the average bop player doesn't change its ROLE on the fly, a few BO's maybe, but not its role(DPS/HEAL/SCI).
My ONLY real counter argument to anyone who thinks the bop is OP or better yet even on par with fed equivalents is to fly one at LG and pvp in it. Most wont I know, but its the only real way to really understand its strengths and weaknesses.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Some BO changing is not uncommon even on builds without universal slots. I don't do it often, but I do it. The BoP has more freedom there, but changing your entire play style on the fly isn't easy - not just - but also - for mechanical reasons, but also because you need to think differently when you fly a different build.

I think the real advantages of the BoP's versatility depends he available ships overall, and if specific BO combinations are particularly strong combination of abilities that can't be combined with other ships. With the Nebula, D'Kyr and MVAM AE, these combinations have gone very rare. I suppose the only unique combination is now no longer found in the Cmdr and Lt.Cmdr slots, but in the Lt. slots (doubling up on 2 Lt. of the same class).

If this advantage is insufficient, the BoP should simply get his missing BO power (the Ensign at Tier 5) and that's it.
I won't disagree to the forgetting to swap a console or adjust power settings, but tonight I switched from Tac Cmdr and Lt.Cmdr w/2 Sci Lt, to Sci Cmdr and Lt Comdr Tac w/Sci Lt and Tac Lt, than again to all Sci except Lt Comdr Tac. The sci abilities ranged from basic heals for myself, to 2x tbr and more heals for support heals and for anti mines/cannons, to CBP and Tach beam to break tough shield tanks. There is also the fun factor of going all Tac and see how long you can live.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
06-09-2011, 11:17 AM
For me, at least, a LOT of the BoPs advantage comes from it's ability to wield Dual Heavy Cannons (and it's accompanying turn rate).

You can the have the most awesometastic shield stripping Sciboat out there, but it won't mean squat if you're don't have the damage to make use of it/keep the shields down. A CPB 3 loaded BoP is just terrifying.
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