Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashur1
I agree on the upgrade system. If suddenly all the precious (and quite expensive) c-store ships became obsolete, all hell would break lose. And think of all the people who wanted their favourite ship at max level. The cycle would begin anew...and...and... instead of T5 Connie threads there would be... T6 Connie threads.
I'm a strong advocate of ship upgrade. FROM Tier 1 to top tier, whichever it is.

But I cannot help but wonder how many people that are so content with their Sovvies and Excels will join the ranks of the T6 Connie mob when their precious ships no longer are the top dogs any more.

One of the most repeated arguments against allowing lower tier ships to be upgraded is "a connie cannot and should not win against a sovvie". That is one of the most un-Trek concepts I have stumbled around in here. In almost ALL episodes in ALL Star Trek series, from TOS to ENT, the "starring ship" is the underdog weapons-wise, either outgunned or outnumbered (or both!), and it was the brains of the man/woman sitting in the captain's chair that made the difference.

Of course, in STO, the devs can give you the weapons, but not the brains.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth-Thanatos View Post
I'm a strong advocate of ship upgrade. FROM Tier 1 to top tier, whichever it is.

But I cannot help but wonder how many people that are so content with their Sovvies and Excels will join the ranks of the T6 Connie mob when their precious ships no longer are the top dogs any more.

One of the most repeated arguments against allowing lower tier ships to be upgraded is "a connie cannot and should not win against a sovvie". That is one of the most un-Trek concepts I have stumbled around in here. In almost ALL episodes in ALL Star Trek series, from TOS to ENT, the "starring ship" is the underdog weapons-wise, either outgunned or outnumbered (or both!), and it was the brains of the man/woman sitting in the captain's chair that made the difference.

Of course, in STO, the devs can give you the weapons, but not the brains.
I think it has more to do with the idea of a 150yo ship beating a nearly-new ship. I can see why people -want- their favourite starship to be viable at every level of play, and I can even suppress my inner nerd if Cryptic were to allow such because at the end of the day, it's more important that people are having fun, but from a lore-junky's perspective, a refit can only go so far.

First, the Constitution is old, in TNG era they were used as training ships for cadets, and those were the refit versions. Second, the Soverign is a combat cruiser, while the Constitution was a general purpose exploration cruiser. Finally, why would starfleet spend vast amounts of time and resources stripping a Constitution all the way down to the superstructure and replacing the entire power grid, systems grid, warp core, shields, weapons and hull plating, only to leave it looking exacly the same as it was in Kirk's day? The Excalibur class is, essentially, the 25th century Constitution-refit. The same goes for the Miranda really; the class was close to being mothballed when the Dominion War started up, so they were given quick and dirty combat upgrades and hurled into the teeth of a superior enemy to keep Starfleet's numbers up.

If I'm honest, I would rather they had stuck with 25th-century takes on classic hull profiles in the normal game, made a much longer series of time-travel missions in which players could use 23rd-century ships and uniforms, and then put the 23rd-century resources into the Foundry for players to expand upon. As it stands, if I were a Temporal Investigations officer at Starfleet Command, I'd be driven mad by the vast scale of the incursion of the 23rd-century into the 25th :p

But anyway, TOS stuff is popular, Cryptic have adopted a most fun for the most people approach, and those of us who have a problem with the equivalent of fighting in a Napoleonic wooden sailing ship against WW2 battleships will just have to shut up and deal. I just wanted to explain that I don't think that opposition to T5/6 refits for TOS-era ships is malicious or spiteful, simply driven by people who enjoy a game with a more cohesive theme and adherence to lore.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
you could always extend how long your in tier ships by another rank. i'll give an example

at Lt. we get the miranda we get rid of it at Lt.Cmd instead of trading the ship we could instead get a refitted version of it that would match what we get as Lt.Cmd. so at Lt. we get 3 weap slots 2 fore 1 aft, 3 bridge stations 1tac 1eng 1sci, devices and consoles. at Lt.Cmd we get 4 weap slots 2 fore 2 aft, 3 bridge stations 1tac 1eng 1sci (one would be upgraded), devices, consoles increase to hull, shields, and crew. but thats my two energy credits worth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Cockburn
The Excalibur class is, essentially, the 25th century Constitution-refit.
You would have a point, if the Excalibur were Tier 5, or upgradable to Tier 5. But it's not; it's Tier 2, just like the Constitution class of 150 years ago. Not only can a brand new ship right off the line not beat a brand new Sovereign right off the line, BUT IT CAN'T EVEN RELIABLY BEAT THAT CONSTITUTION OF (supposedly) 150 YEARS AGO.

The whole idea of "I don't want 150 year old technology in STO" goes right out the window when you realize that the T2 Constitution, Vesper, and Excalibur are all brand new ships, as are Sabers, Rapiers, Ushaans, Novas, Auroras and Quasars. Very, very few of those are ships from 150 years ago refitted for current use. They are all, even the Constitution-A and her sister ships, brand new ships built within the last 30 years.

So basically, this argument comes down the Constitution LOOKS like a Constitution, and that's bad because it looks like 150 year old technology, but the same exact ship with a different skin is just fine because it looks like it was built in 2409.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
I am also another one curious about theese changes, however I think that it will most likely be an upgrade of current ships many Trek fans would be annoyed if their Galaxy , Intrepid or Tactical escort class became useless and they had to settle for a different ship. Also the point someone made about all the C store ships would cause uproar as they are not cheap and speaking as someone who has bought 4 I would be furious.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
There is distinction to make in the "150 old ships". And that it's that there is a major breakthrough in technology.

The construction of metal hulls marks one of those breakthroughs. Before that, you could pit a XIX century warship against a XVI century ship of the line, and they would have been evenly matched. Heck, you could fit a Roman trirreme with cannons and it might blow both ships from the previous examples to cinders. Why? Because the fact it doesn't depend on the wind to manoeuver gives the trirreme a significant advantage. So you could have a 2000 year old ship beating a 200 year old ship. That is an even more extreme example.

For all I know there has NOT been this kind of "major breakthrough" in the Star Trek Universe. Hulls and propulsion systems are basically the same. Even the transwarp drive doesn't provide a significant advantage in a fight, just in a retreat. So a Constitution-class and a Sovereign class are BOTH "wooden ships" with the same base technology.

An outreageous, but feasible, comparison would be a "Monitor" class ironclad kicking the behind of an Aegis frigate, and that is possible (but largely unlikely), if the conditions favor the "Monitor". In the base, both ships are metal hulls with internal combustion engines and rotating turrets.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
I can relate with the people wishing to stick with thier favored rides longer, but I don't support all of them going as far as Tier 5.

To me, it sounds like a great idea to go and order a ship refit so that the ship you had in your previous tier may be able to last you through the next one as well. For example, a Shikahr-class light cruiser could be uprated to match the Cruiser configuration a Lieutenant Commander can use. A Vesper-class cruiser could be improved to be near-even to the Tier 3 Excelsior, or a Rapier-class escort could be uprated on par with heavy escorts such as the Akira-class once a captain reaches Commander rank.

The Galaxy, Defiant and Intrepid refits manages the one-step up so I do support that. I do not think the tier 1 and 2 have any business being in the power range of Tier 5 ships (I'd have agreed to turning a Tier 3 to 4, but Cryptic already bulldozed over that with the Tier 5 Excelsior and Nebula - so if anyone wanted a Tier 5 Akira, there's precedent), but I think it'd be nice to allow people to fly their old favorites for awhile longer.

I don't think the Tier 5 B'Rel counts as a precedent. The KDF's ships have been treated very differently from how the Federation vessels have been (if the Klingons would've classified thier ships following the escort format, we'd likely have seen the B'Rel as tier 1, the Raptor as tier 2, the K'vort as tier 3, and so forth - apples and oranges).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Cryptic has put a lot of work into the various Tier 5 ships, and most of them are from the C-Store. Customers who buy a C-store ship only to see it "superceded" by a Tier 6 are not going to be happy.

However, stahl's talked about "Fleet Commanders" of some sort many times, as a way to explore rank 61. In this situation, your DPS and hull and all that stuff would improve, but not because you have a bigger ship. Instead, you will command NPC pets in space. Your Tier 5 remains the standard.

And this is my impression of what future ranks will do, rather than "Tier 6" ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
In this respect, I disagree. Crytic "has put a lot of work" in ruining the current endgame tier, basically mortgaging any future improvements and cap raises.

As for the people with lots of T5 ships, well, no sympathy from my part. WHEN a new tier of ships appears, all their T5 ships will be just "the previous step" and be left behind by cooler, better ships.

As I said in other threads, I view my ship as my "space persona" and I should expect not to change my ship, unless I do so choose. When your character ranks up the game doesn't force you to change from Tallarite to Vulcan, right? Then, why in the nine hells I am forced to change my "space aspect"?

A "real" SF officer career usually develops in 4-5 ships (including the periods when he/she is NOT commanding the ship), and Captains are usually assigned to the same ship for decades. Ship changes are very rare occasions, yet here, a captain is forced to change a minimum of FIVE times like it or not.

I suggested a set of optional missions to upgrade the ship IF you so choose. For every tier, not just one or two. This opens the door to having Mirandas, Constitutions or NX in the top tier, to the dismay of a few purists, but to the rejoicing of a lot of people that love ONE Star Trek ship, regardless of the tier it's been placed, for the opportunity of using it in STO forever.

I'm repeating my idea here:

If a player doesn't like the ships in the new tier more than the one he/she currently has, he is entitled to go to Memory alpha (Or Utopia Planitia when/if Mars is added) to start the "questline" for upgrading his/her current ship:

First stage is obvious: bring the hull and shield points to the new tier level. I had even envisioned a way to allow this mission to be profession specific:

Tac Officers do an "extensive" (obviously just mentioned in text, not forcing the player to view a movie) review of their ship in combat in search of ways to improve the hull and shields to withstand more rigorous combat conditions. After the reviewing, the player is assigned to go to some system to collect additional data from combats which will allow the ship to be improved.

Sci Officers start a research in Metalurgy and Special Materials to find a better alloy for outfitting the ship and some Emitter improvements. When the research is completed, they have to go to two or three systems to collect the materials needed for the new alloy.

Eng Officers go to the Factories to look for ways of improving the industrial process, reduce impurities, and obtain better ship armor. In this case, may be instead of sending the player to space to collect materials, may be he/she should move around Mars to different factories to analyze and improve different key processes.

The end result is the same: an item, or token, called something like "breakthrough: hull and shield upgrade" that when applied to the ship, brings the ship to new tier stats.

But that is just the first step.

Next stage is more complicated, and different for each ship class. It consists of individual missions to add fore and aft weapons slots, console slots (sci, eng, tac) to bring the ship to new tier, and if needed, additional device slots. Obviously, one mission means one slot, if a certain ship needs to go from one to three sci console slots for example, you will need to do twice the sci mission slot.

And now for the final stage. At this point we have a ship with stats and equipment slots of the new tier, BUT the ship is still of the current tier. Final mission: "Starfleet modification approval". Yes, no matter the modifications, Starfleet needs to evaluate the ship for certificating it as "new tier". Once more, the ship is sent into a set of sub-missions, to test combat readiness, and general ship behavior in different conditions.

Once this set of missions is complete, the reward is another item, or token, called "Starfleet new tier certification", and when applied to the ship, brings it finally to the new tier, so next tier skills apply to it.

Obviously, this "questline" has to be repeated for every tier you want to advance, so it's also a test of endurance and affection ( love? ) for your current ship.

Also, this applies to ANY individual ship, including individual c-store ships. So if you upgrade a NX class to tier 5, it will have T5 stats, BUT if you delete the ship, and reclaim a new NX from the C-store, you will have to re-upgrade it through all tiers again. Like the Delta crafting, it doesn't upgrade ALL ships of the class in the account, but only the ship which the individual character has done the missions.

If you really love your ship, you will never delete it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
I feel Darth-Thantos is onto something here.

I feel strongly for my ship as well and fly it (a normal AE without the seperation console) even when I could be flying an MVAM and probably boost performance

It's my ship, I've had it for over a year now, it's special.
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