Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Saying a science ship is competetive if the captain has enough skill is like saying you can win Wimbeldon with a spoon if you're skilled enough. It's true if your skill was astronomically higher than that of all other competitors you theoretically could, but if a single person of equal skill shows up with a tennis racket you'd be toast.
......wow.......wow...that is just........wow.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Same for STO. Someone who's good enough to compete decently in a science ship could absolutely dominate in an escort or cruiser.
Being a critical component to your group's win is not being "decent."

Science ships are not weak like you constantly claim they are, and you don't need some sort of gigantic skill difference from your fellow player to be effective in them. If they were then any number of the premades that play STO wouldn't carry them as part of a standard loadout for their groups.

Honestly if you can't stand the science ship then go play a cruiser and be a healer; a lot of fed pugs could use a healer anyway.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothnang
Saying a science ship is competetive if the captain has enough skill is like saying you can win Wimbeldon with a spoon if you're skilled enough. It's true if your skill was astronomically higher than that of all other competitors you theoretically could, but if a single person of equal skill shows up with a tennis racket you'd be toast.

Same for STO. Someone who's good enough to compete decently in a science ship could absolutely dominate in an escort or cruiser.
A good point, though I think John McEnroe at his height, might have been able to compete at Wimbeldon with a spoon

Honestly, I do not find my Nova to be spoon-like, or any less tennis-racket like than the Excelsior I have. Maybe a different style of racket, geared more for finesse than power, but it's still a suitable enough racket for when I need it. Mind you, the character I have in the Nova is a tac, that up until now was skilled for flying cruisers.

One of the things I've discovered playing a science ship and cruiser concurrently, is that I have become a better commander at both.

On the same vein, though, each commander brings a unique style to the table that may suit the equipment they fly better.

Kind of an example of how different skills interact as they relate to tennis...: If you remember in the women's Wimbeldon Semi-Final several years back, Amelie Mauresmo faced Serena Williams. Both power tennis players mind you, and fairly imposing women in figure. Amelie, however, wasn't as good at the power game as Serena--and it showed early on in the match, but she was a slightly better at finessing the ball.

Amelie figured out that Serena had a difficult time hitting returns when the ball was moving fast and low to the net.

So, Amelie began hitting line drives that were mere inches above the net. Serena couldn't get them, or she'd return them out of bounds. It got to the point, where Serena was down by a set and actually got so mad she screamed like a little teenage girl, and threw her racket on the ground and broke it.

Amelie wound up getting injured and had to resign from the match, but before then she had Serena flat out smoked.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Thanks for the detailed builds Sivar. I've been playing STO a long time in End Game as a Tac flying a cruiser, but have recenlty worked an alt Sci to RALH and I'm feeling really lost in the build... It just doesn't seem to work at all. I think I've got too much of a Swiss Army Knife thing going and I need to focus more. Having your guide will help.

Also, I have a Sci KDF (still a baby Lt.Cmdr, but he's my favorite alt to play right now...) and I wonder if you wouldn't mind putting up a build recommendation for the End Game on the Kling side? I understand the KDF doesn't actually have a Sci ship... Is a carrier the best or a BoP? I've heard both and neither. What is your Sci experience for the Other side??

Thanks again for your well outlined ideas. I appreciate what you're trying to do here and I think it's great!

/Subscirbed.

/Vote: Sticky +1
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Science ships are not weak like you constantly claim they are, and you don't need some sort of gigantic skill difference from your fellow player to be effective in them.
Well, I agree that they don't need their roles as thoroughly revamped as Rothnang generally indicates, but I do think there is a basic point made elsewhere by another poster. Science ships and science skills are different things. Science skills are still quite potent, played intelligently. Science ships don't quite measure up.

If you compare a science ship with a theoretical escort or cruiser that has its major skills swapped around to emphasize science, then the "science" escort or the "science" cruiser clearly has an edge over the science ship, as a platform for using science powers.

So the question becomes, do you Sivar believe that the science powers are OP enough against the tactical and engineering powers to balance out the less capable ship configurations that science ships currently come attached to? If so, then you're right to not want a change. If not, then the science ships should have that small boost.

I play exclusively BoP in pvp these days, so believe me that I have no desire for OP science ships. I'm one of the people that still considers ST a necessity, largely because only a well coordinated science / escort / cruiser focus ever kills me. (Nods here to the guy with the Dreadnaught that took my string of nine 14-1 and 15-0 results and handed me three straight 4 - 3s with team defeats the other day. That was a joy to watch, even from the receiving end )

Anyways, I happen to think the science powers have a good balance with the tactical and engineering powers... ie. equivalent effect without being identical. That leaves the ships carrying around a mostly useless BTS:S 1 and two weapons less. So something should be done to boost the ships WITHOUT boosting the powers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatricianVetinari
Thanks for the detailed builds Sivar. I've been playing STO a long time in End Game as a Tac flying a cruiser, but have recenlty worked an alt Sci to RALH and I'm feeling really lost in the build... It just doesn't seem to work at all. I think I've got too much of a Swiss Army Knife thing going and I need to focus more. Having your guide will help.

Also, I have a Sci KDF (still a baby Lt.Cmdr, but he's my favorite alt to play right now...) and I wonder if you wouldn't mind putting up a build recommendation for the End Game on the Kling side? I understand the KDF doesn't actually have a Sci ship... Is a carrier the best or a BoP? I've heard both and neither. What is your Sci experience for the Other side??

Thanks again for your well outlined ideas. I appreciate what you're trying to do here and I think it's great!

/Subscirbed.

/Vote: Sticky +1
Well there are more than a few questions that need answering before a good BoP build can be put together. For example:

-Do you want to be using full sci powers? (parallel to the sci ship?)
-Do you want to be a healer?
-Do you want cannons or beams?
-Do you want kinetics (torps, mines) or not?
-Do you want high spike damage?

and so on; answer those and it will be a lot easier for you, me, or anybody to formulate a build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richander View Post
Well, I agree that they don't need their roles as thoroughly revamped as Rothnang generally indicates, but I do think there is a basic point made elsewhere by another poster. Science ships and science skills are different things. Science skills are still quite potent, played intelligently. Science ships don't quite measure up.

If you compare a science ship with a theoretical escort or cruiser that has its major skills swapped around to emphasize science, then the "science" escort or the "science" cruiser clearly has an edge over the science ship, as a platform for using science powers.

So the question becomes, do you Sivar believe that the science powers are OP enough against the tactical and engineering powers to balance out the less capable ship configurations that science ships currently come attached to? If so, then you're right to not want a change. If not, then the science ships should have that small boost.

I play exclusively BoP in pvp these days, so believe me that I have no desire for OP science ships. I'm one of the people that still considers ST a necessity, largely because only a well coordinated science / escort / cruiser focus ever kills me. (Nods here to the guy with the Dreadnaught that took my string of nine 14-1 and 15-0 results and handed me three straight 4 - 3s with team defeats the other day. That was a joy to watch, even from the receiving end )

Anyways, I happen to think the science powers have a good balance with the tactical and engineering powers... ie. equivalent effect without being identical. That leaves the ships carrying around a mostly useless BTS:S 1 and two weapons less. So something should be done to boost the ships WITHOUT boosting the powers.
Well I think that the best way to answer you is to start by asking you a question: what would happen if the Science ships were given a 4/4 (or even a 4/3) weapon setup?

As far as I see it, they would become mini-cruisers, and realize that cruisers deal the majority of their damage with very little in the way of tactical abilities (compared to an escort), and realize what would happen if the Sci ship had that sort of power in combination with science abilities that are already quite potent.

It is not a question of the Science ship having weaker damage output compared to the other ship types, but rather about making sure that science ships are not solo-pwnmobiles.

Now if you were to nerf all sci abilities in favor of additional weapon strength for the ship then how does that help the class or the game overall? Science ships requires a much more methodical approach than any other Federation ship, and if you treat the ship like a cruiser or an escort then you're already dead, you just don't know it yet. :p

Now do I believe that some science powers are OP compared to the captain powers of Tactical and Eng? Right now, given the cap to defenses, I have to say that no they are not overpowered. Prior to Season 2 it was different, but that is a topic for a different discussion.

My main character is a tac-Raptor pilot, so I too know how it is to be on the receiving end of brutal science dating back a long long way and I don't want a return to the OP'd ships they had back then.

I think what it really comes down to is that the Science ship works best as a part of a team, and people don't want to be that way, and they don't accept it. However, when you're pairing ships for teams, if you pair a science ship with any other class of ship, they can kill any (equal size) team that is put against them (unless of course.....they're incompetent and full impulse into combat and whatnot).

In the end Escorts and Cruisers rely on their guns to kill, and thus rack up huge numbers in the process; but science ships rely on their sci abilities to supplement their weapons and thus make the kill regardless of the situation. Going back to my first point, what happens when you increase the weapons fire coming from the sci ship without weakening the science abilities that they have at their disposal...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
I never approved of Science ships getting more weapon slots. As far as I'm concerned, we'd be hard pressed to use them efficiently anyways due to weapon drain issues.

I do believe that the science vessel should be able to function on its own everybit as well as the escort and the cruiser. I believe that once these vessels team up, each provide an asset that others do not have which increases thier team performance dramatically.

Sivar, you seem to stress that the science vessels have everything they need to have, and that anyone whom can't make as much with them is an incompetent. I can't say I appreciate that point of view because not only is it based on the equivalent of "I'm right because you suck", which is kind of rude, but I also do happen to disagree with you and feel that something is missing to science vessels because they're not solid, valued picks in comparison to the two other fed ship types. That's my opinion.

Does this mean I crave the days when the science ships were overpowered? Well, personally, I never actually found them overpowered even when I was at the receiving end of the 'nastier' science powers like the VM/SNB combo, the nasty FBP, the large energy sipping TRs... and I remember finding ways to cope around those or just bear up sometimes, and other times got my butt handed to be and took it in stride. I figured they were entitled to it.

When I started using them myself, I found that thier ability to kill was much slower, but they had a very interesting way to control the pace of a fight. It was a rewarding, empowering thing that we unfortunately no longer have. I can sort of admit it might have been set at an extreme, but in being adjusted it just seemed to reach another extreme rather than a good middle-ground. I'd like the issue to see more consideration so that middle-ground can be found and that I can return to finding most of my science powers significantly effective enough for me to see clearly what contribution they make (really, this was the big reason why VM was so popular, it's effect was dead-on obvious with clear, immediate rewards) and that people can again have that neat, we have a science ship with us" reaction again (because I know I had it, and it unfortunately doesn't seem to be there anymore).
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatricianVetinari
So on the Kling side, I was correct that there is no dedicated Sci ship (at present)? But the BoP is the prefered substitute (and not a carrier)?

I'm really enjoying the debate on the third-classness of the Sci Ship when compared to Escorts/Cruisers. One thing I really don't get about Sci ships is why they only have +10 to Aux Power. Cruisers get +20 divided evenly, Escorts get +15 to Weapon Power.

Sci ships should have +15 to Aux.
Correct. No dedicated science ships. The Bop is the current favourite, because the carrier currently hurts as bad as federation science ships. Expect that to change with the new tribble builds though. Klingons are going to suddenly love their Karfis, and feds are going to be equiping a lot more fire at will to deal with fighters. As for the energy thing, i suspect it's a vestigial remnant of the attempt to force Star Trek science ships into the MMO role of D&D Wizard. I guess the designers forgot how badly D&D wizards suck and that people don't generally play the class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Well I think that the best way to answer you is to start by asking you a question: what would happen if the Science ships were given a 4/4 (or even a 4/3) weapon setup?

As far as I see it, they would become mini-cruisers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
It is not a question of the Science ship having weaker damage output compared to the other ship types, but rather about making sure that science ships are not solo-pwnmobiles.
Actually, that won't be the best way to answer me, as I generally advocate accuracy and critical boosts to science ships, rather than weapons increases. I've posted a "mini-cruiser" build for the nebula on tribble with my comments as to why I think it is inferior to an actual cruiser. I agree that science ships should not be "solo-pwnmobiles", but it seems you recognize they aren't at the moment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Now do I believe that some science powers are OP compared to the captain powers of Tactical and Eng? Right now, given the cap to defenses, I have to say that no they are not overpowered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
In the end Escorts and Cruisers rely on their guns to kill, and thus rack up huge numbers in the process; but science ships rely on their sci abilities to supplement their weapons and thus make the kill regardless of the situation.
So as you yourself acknowledge (perhaps without realizing it), science powers are not OP yet science ships require their powers to make up for a lack of firepower, while tac and cruisers do not. I'll simply add that if the powers are not OP then the firepower must also be made equal (but achieved in a different way than weapon slots I'll grant).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
My main character is a tac-Raptor pilot, so I too know how it is to be on the receiving end of brutal science dating back a long long way and I don't want a return to the OP'd ships they had back then.

I think what it really comes down to is that the Science ship works best as a part of a team
Believe me I recognize the irony in supporting a change that is only going to hurt my performance by putting more science ships out there. But the devs are forcing an end to the practice of RSP chaining Federation prey who think they can compete. The shield and RSP changes on tribble are going to do far more to hurt my klingons' cause than any fair treatment of the science ship class, IMO. The glory days of 4 cruisers who can't support each other enough to survive me, and can't put out enough focus fire to kill me, are coming to an end.

But our goals appear to be similar. You started this thread so that new players wouldn't be turned off of science, even though putting more science ships out there will hurt us as klingons, and I commend you for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
Going back to my first point, what happens when you increase the weapons fire coming from the sci ship without weakening the science abilities that they have at their disposal...
More players will choose to fly science ships and not be turned off by the slow PVE performance. The feds will get more team synergy in PVP, with a better mix of ships, and we'll get a better game from them.

... and since we play klingons, that's really all we can hope for.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The post on Energy Siphon made me thing for a moment.
ES gives -10 to all energy and +10 to your own.
Compared that to what beam target subsystem drains (-20 and more) or what an Emergency Power to Something grants (what's the lowest you get? +16?). Sure, t hose are two powers and its just one energy - but -10 hardly affects anyone at all, and the cooldowns of BTSS and EptX are far better.
Can anyone make the case that Energy Siphon is actually a good power on its own? Or is it just for the "extra boost" in case that BTSX II and Tyken's Rift don't reduce someones energy to 0? Can that be enough for a Lt.Skill?
ES 1 actually drains 9, ES 2 drains 12, and 3 drains 15. These are fixed values, regardless of how much aux or skill you have, only the duration changes. And that is why it is a terrible power. The drain/buff is low, the cooldown is long, and the only thing your investment into aux and skill gives you is a few extra seconds.

Intuition would tell you its a brilliant power to use in conjunction with Tykens Rift. Of course that isn't possible for more than a few seconds because they share a global cooldown. It can naturally be used with target subsystems, but the thing is, you'd be better off just playing an escort, carrier, or excelsior and using target subsystems 3 for a more draining effect, and it would cost you many less skill points to do so, while not requiring aux power at all.

You don't need a science ship to be a great power drainer.

Its one of those places science powers are just very weak, in my opinion.



On topic, I don't like some of the builds, personally. I think they sacrifice a bit much in heals, though that comes down to personal preference I'm sure. But more importantly, in some of them, a massive amount of skill points is required to get those builds to work. If science skills had passives that actually gave benefits, then it wouldn't be such an issue, but as it is, I don't like builds that recommend spending skill points in so many skills as some of these do.

I also think Tyken's is way too common in the builds, because it just isn't that good. Its a very short term nuisance. Granted, I may be one of the three people who still runs EPS consoles on every ship, but I just ignore any Tyken's I get hit with, personally. I have yet to run into anyone using Tyken's along with other drains that actually scares me with it. Can it be used to good effect? Maybe, but I haven't seen it since it was nerfed.

I'm also surprised Viral Matrix isn't used in more than one of those builds. It was heavily nerfed, but I'd say its way more useful than Tyken's Rift, personally. VM is at least much more reliable for system shutdowns.

And of course, like I said earlier, I really don't like RSP in there. Its definitely a bad idea to get dependent on that power with the changes coming.

Overall, though, other than the big issue of the skill point budget, I think they are pretty good builds with good explanation on what they are intended to do and what to do with them. But as I have been saying for some time, science needs some improvements in many areas, and nothing in those builds suggests otherwise to me. They should hopefully give people ideas to play with, but they don't avoid the issues science has right now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Identiaetlos View Post
Honestly, I do not find my Nova to be spoon-like, or any less tennis-racket like than the Excelsior I have. Maybe a different style of racket, geared more for finesse than power, but it's still a suitable enough racket for when I need it. Mind you, the character I have in the Nova is a tac, that up until now was skilled for flying cruisers.
That's because the differences between ship classes in T2 are subtle. You have one more science slot than other ships, the same number of weapons as a cruiser, and the T1 subsystem targeting which in that tier is like having four extra tac powers. Also you're competing against cruisers and escorts that don't even have access to a slew of engineering powers that give them huge ammounts of extra energy.

Science starts out very strong, but it doesn't scale well. By the time you hit Tier 5 you have 25% less weapons than the cruiser, your inate abilities have become mostly useless, cruisers and escorts will run with over 300 total energy from engineering skills you can't increase due to having to spec science skills, all science abilities with a T3 and T4 focus skill will scale purely off consoles while your T5 science skills shoot a giant hole in your XP budget.

T3 is really the golden time for science ships. It's right when you can max the focus skill for Tachyon Beam and you get your first Lt Cmdr slot, so you're running around with a Tachyon Beam 3 just ripping peoples shields off left and right. On that tier it's a hugely powerful ability...
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
06-09-2011, 11:39 AM
A friendly bump for new sci players
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