Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
06-11-2011, 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
Let me ask you then:

Which ship is the more effective in a arena match:

1: A Cruiser with 1.500.000 damage and 8 kills?

or

2: A Escort with 650.000 damage and 15 kills?


Consider: In order to make "real" DPS in a cruiser you are giving up a lot of heal capability..

You need to dedicate two slots for EP 2 Weapons, your commander (and possibly your LtC) slot for offensive powers.

You need to use your Tac console for weapon boosts (and thus, have to put the Borg Console into a Sci slot further limiting your heals)

You need to skill in EP2 Weapons boosting boxes.

My own Excelsior:

Weapons:

4x Tetryon Cannon MK XII [CrtH]
2x Tetryon Turret MK XII
2x Tetryon Turret MK XI

Assimilated Deflector
Assimilated Engine

Reman Covariant Shield

1x EPS MK XI - 2x Neutronium Armor MK XII - 1x Field Generator MK XI
1x Induction MK XI - 1x Assimilated Console
3x Tetryon MK XI Consoles

TacTeam1 - AP Beta 1 - CRF 2

EP2W1 - EP2S2 - DEM 2 - DEM 3
EP2W1 - EP2S2
EngT1

SciT1 - TSS2

I have a grand total of 1 hullheal (not counting Borg Procs) - Im exactly as vulnerable to focusfire as a escort, and though I have far more effective HP, Im exactly as reliant on teamheals as a escort.
You are right on the money. My tac toon does more kills with less DPS in my Defiant, than he does in an Excelsior. I have both and I prefer the Defiant. That being said Excelsior is the best option for Tac peeps that want a cruiser
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
06-14-2011, 06:45 AM
I am a tact captain. If anyone think that FAW3 is the thing that makes the Excel so deadly they are flying them wrong and using FAW as a crutch. IF you want to be really deadly in that pig dont waste the LtCm slot on FAW, use Beta or Omega.

FAW is nice but its basically an AOE weapon and that isnt going to win a match, The excelsior is the most maneuverable 4+4 cruiser and its power is its ability to keep that broadside on a single target better than any other cruiser on the fed side. When they alter FAW3 i hope you dont get caught relying on it.

My recommendation is to use the excel as an escort killer. You are the only cruiser that can realistically chase them down when they try and run (ie. when they are weakest).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
06-14-2011, 11:26 AM
Well, it's back to the assault for now. I must say that flying the excelsior was alright, just can't stand to look at the thing on a daily basis. the ltcm tac slot just couldn't do it for me. FAW is well, you know... BO3 is tasty but that 3 seconds to get back to 125....meh. AP:O - best results with that, but we all knew that was gonna happen. So it's back to the good ol sovy. Target subsystems engines or shields or whatever and a tac team or 2.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
06-14-2011, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainHorizon
Well, it's back to the assault for now. I must say that flying the excelsior was alright, just can't stand to look at the thing on a daily basis. the ltcm tac slot just couldn't do it for me. FAW is well, you know... BO3 is tasty but that 3 seconds to get back to 125....meh. AP:O - best results with that, but we all knew that was gonna happen. So it's back to the good ol sovy. Target subsystems engines or shields or whatever and a tac team or 2.
That made me grin.
Personally i think that the Sovereign (and the Assault Cuisers in general) doesn't look much better than the Excelsior. So the only cruiser that has at least a bit firepower is the Galaxy -X but that thing turns so slow... i am just too impatient for that ship.

TBH i think that FAW is much too overrated, at least in a 1vs1 scenario. The only thing that FAW does (too) good is to make AOE damage.
I understand that if 5 cruisers vs. 5 cruisers match where everyone spams FAW the overall damage gets overhand.
I would me much happier if there would be less AOE powers and more single target damage abilities.
Additionally there should be a limit on how much players can target another player so that focused fire does not take overhand (and i don't know about you, but that sucks much more than the FAW issue IMHO).

EDIT:
By doing that, players would no longer be forced to make "all defense builds" but would be rather more free to create builds more suitable to their playstyle.
Cruisers could make more damage, escorts would be able to stand more on their own and science ships would be more capable to do both.
---> eveyone wins.
Eventually implementing a limit that "nerfs" focus fire would make the game more Trekkish IMHO.
Nerving FAw is just fighting a symptom, not the cause.



Live long and prosper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
06-14-2011, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilawpilath View Post
While I have flown an Excelsior, my FAW experience was in an MVAE Engineer with FAW 2 + 3

And Sure I'd see my damage "top the charts" but I knew why. It wasn't because I was killing people. It was because I was flying around the enemy's team and my beams were hitting every target. Sure it might have "said" on the Report that I might have "had" 10-15 kills, but honestly I didn't. The fellow Escorts that were cannon builds were getting the kills.

Listen to MelineAaele, she knows what she's talking about. Faw, despite it being a broken skill, is not the best way to be a DPS cruiser. It just makes it seem like it is.

Ok guys. I have a question here.

If you "experienced PvPers" keep saying that the escorts are the one doing the real killing, and if FAW cruisers are in fact not really helping or really killing anything then why so many of you are campaining for a FAW nerf?

Yes really, listening at you people, it is like FAW is irrelevant in a battle, it does lot of spreaded damage but fails to achieve anything of consequence.

So what's wrong then? Maybe the attack patterns are what really needs nerf. FAW in itself seem to be a useless skill that does not achieve anything or so say you.

Sorry, i am getting very confused. I read the PvP threads to learn and then on one end i hear FAW is too strong and then i hear FAW does not kill ****. So.... ???
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
06-14-2011, 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial_Fury
Ok guys. I have a question here.

If you "experienced PvPers" keep saying that the escorts are the one doing the real killing, and if FAW cruisers are in fact not really helping or really killing anything then why so many of you are campaining for a FAW nerf?

Yes really, listening at you people, it is like FAW is irrelevant in a battle, it does lot of spreaded damage but fails to achieve anything of consequence.

So what's wrong then? Maybe the attack patterns are what really needs nerf. FAW in itself seem to be a useless skill that does not achieve anything or so say you.

Sorry, i am getting very confused. I read the PvP threads to learn and then on one end i hear FAW is too strong and then i hear FAW does not kill ****. So.... ???
oh it kills, but only if 3 cruisers are tossing it out btb. and maybe there is an escort running dispersal whatever3. and your sci is running faw, and mines, and photonic shockwave. oh, and the mvam faw shockwave boats? lol... the damage is there, but its not directed damage,..., and there is no power drain on the second "extra" shot. but as stated above, yes, its just AOE.

but i hear the hard cap for weapons is 135 in recent threads. should take down all that crazy damage a lil anyway.

-see you on the battlefield
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
06-15-2011, 04:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestial_Fury
Ok guys. I have a question here.

If you "experienced PvPers" keep saying that the escorts are the one doing the real killing, and if FAW cruisers are in fact not really helping or really killing anything then why so many of you are campaining for a FAW nerf?

Yes really, listening at you people, it is like FAW is irrelevant in a battle, it does lot of spreaded damage but fails to achieve anything of consequence.

So what's wrong then? Maybe the attack patterns are what really needs nerf. FAW in itself seem to be a useless skill that does not achieve anything or so say you.

Sorry, i am getting very confused. I read the PvP threads to learn and then on one end i hear FAW is too strong and then i hear FAW does not kill ****. So.... ???
We are talking about *effective* damage here.


Ill try to explain:

If you compare a regular beam array attack with one FAWd, you get some interesting results

An array when fired have 4 pulses in its firecycle

An array when fired with FAW have 5 pulses in place of 4, *plus* an additional 5 shooting at random targets

1 Array : 4 pulses
1 Array/FAW : 10 pulses

8 Arrays : 32 pulses
8 Arrays/FAW : 80 pulses

That means this one skill increases damage by 250% (this havent taken into account any damageboost for the skill - Testing have showed a net increase of 260-270%)


Now, if you fight a 1v1 against another cruiser without FAW, you are basically hitting him with 80 beams in the same time he hits you with 32 (since all the +5 random beams will hit the only target in range, that poor nonFAW cruiser)

If you have a 1v2 fight where the two doesnt use FAW while you do, you are basically surpassing their combined damage. (for fairness sake we will say your shots are evenly spread, in reality your actual target will always take more hits, since the first 5 pulses will hit your current target) - Result is that they hit you with 64 beams, while you hit them with 40 each.



If you fight in a 5v5 fight (which most arena fights are) you still have this 250-270% damage increase, but the extra ~150% is spread among all availiable targets - This isnt a problem really, but it does artificially increase your net damage by the aforementioned ~260%

Now consider a imaginary 5v5 fight where you pit 5 FAW cruisers against 5 regular cruisers..

The 5 cruisers will pour out a total of 160 beams per firecycle, while their FAW brethren have a total of 400.

A hullhit with a fully buffed array is usually between 800 and 1200 damage (might be higher depending on debuffs on target) Ill use 1000 as an average for this comparison.

So each firecycle you will have one team capable of doing 160k damage and another team capable of doing 400k damage (not sure exactly how long a firecycle is, Id guess 3-5 seconds)

-----

Summary

If you fly 1v1 with FAW you have a huge advantage.

If you have 1 FAWboat in a 5man team, youll have a slight advantage (that extra ~160% damage is spread between the 5 targets, and thus ineffective) Note: This is the artificial inflation of damage we were talking about, since only a few (lame) groups are running with 4-5 FAW boats

If you have a 5man FAW team, the randomness of the extra pulses are mitigated by the amount present.* And thus, a 5man FAW team, is one of the most deadly and OPd team setups.

* Breakdown of each firecycle (assuming all cruisers with 8 beam arrays) - Both teams target Ship 1 of the opposing team.

FAW team

Ship 1 - Takes ~160k damage
Ship 2
Ship 3
Ship 4
Ship 5

non-FAW team

Ship 1 - Takes ~240k damage
Ship 2 - Takes ~40k damage
Ship 3 - Takes ~40k damage
Ship 4 - Takes ~40k damage
Ship 5 - Takes ~40k damage

If target dies, the new list looks like this:

FAW team

Ship 1 - Takes ~128k damage
Ship 2
Ship 3
Ship 4
Ship 5

non-FAW team

Ship 1 - Dead
Ship 2 - Takes ~250k damage
Ship 3 - Takes ~50k damage
Ship 4 - Takes ~50k damage
Ship 5 - Takes ~50k damage

Remember, this is for each 3-5 sec..

Also
The non-FAW team will stop fireing whenever they need to drop a heal, whereas the FAW team will continue to shoot while healing.

Now consider a Defiant/Raptor/BOP decloaking - He will take 40-50k hull damage before his shields are even up.

*Desclaimer* Im no math genius, I may have made an error here or there - Should be a fairly accurate assesment though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
06-15-2011, 05:00 AM
Don't forget that FAW seems to have 100% accuracy :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
06-15-2011, 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammel105 View Post
Don't forget that FAW seems to have 100% accuracy :p
Ahhr.. More or less irrelevant.. Regular beam attacks is ~97-98% iirc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
06-15-2011, 10:21 AM
Ok Meline, that was a nice explanation.

Now i really begin to realize how powerful the FAW attack is.

So FAW is definitely killing stuff. When multiple cruisers are spamming it, it has no choice but over time to eats away enemys hulls. It does not blow away people like an escort does with a spike dmg but the sustained FAW of all these cruisers end being just as deadly as the escorts.

So FAW really seems to be overpowered and is likely to be nerfed. What is gonna happen after that? Will this be the end of cruisers as we knew them? With only 2 or 3 Tactical BO skills, will cruisers go back to TT, HY and BO config? FAW will only remain as a tool to remove mines around which are not that threathening to begin with.

Sometimes, i look at the BO skills options and i am very sad when i see that like almost half the skills available are seen as garbage that have no use in PvP and are even laughed about when you come equipped with them. So after FAW, what is the next big thing every cruiser are going to gravitate around? Will they have any use on the battlefield? Healing only?
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