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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-12-2011, 02:13 AM
Let's face it not only Torps need a balance pass but also energy weapons. Three (Phaser/Disruptor/AP) of them are used by the majority. Then there is a big gap before you have Tetryons. Another huge gap later you have Polaron/Plasma. On a big part because of the different amount of skill points needed. A problem energy weapons share with Torps. And I hope in the future when they change the skill tree and hopefully divide ground/space skills they will change this too.

Another problem is energy weapons do too much dmg to hull. While the dmg of torps against shields is much more diminished. Two ways to solve this problem. First increase the dmg of torps against shields, second decrease the dmg of energy against hull. I prefer the later one because else you will get full torpedo boats. On the other hand increased dmg of mines against shields might be useful because you can't time them to hit an unshielded enemy.

When will we see any changes? Beside bugfixes I wouldn't expect any real change before season 5. The time after the launch of S4 they will probably focus on ground.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
06-12-2011, 02:55 AM
I remember wanting to write a thread about a torpedo rebalance idea, but never got to it.
One of the fundamental challenges to me was - how do you really "fairly" balance burst vs DPS. What "math" would you use to justify it, how do you weigh the trade-offs?

Here is some approach for how to determine possible damage values:
Fast Recharge: 7 seconds
Slow Recharge: 8 Seconds => 33 % longer than Slow Recharge
Burst Damage = DPS x RECHARGE
Fast Recharge Burst Damage = 6 x DPS_fast
Slow Recharge Burst Damage = 8 x DPS_slow
DPS_fast = DPS_slow is "too good", we want something less beneficial. Let's say 7 x DPS_fast
7 x DPS_fast = 8 x DPS_low => 0.875 DPS

But, would this be fair? Is this sensible? I have no idea.


Still, here's some rough outline on the basic ideas:
Photon Torpedo
  • Base: Fast Recharge, High DPS, Low Burst
  • Special Ability: +10 Crit Severity Rating
  • High Yield Torpedo: Launches multiple torpedoes

Quantum Torpedo
  • Base: Slow Recharge, Low DPS, High Burst
  • Special Ability: +2 Crit Chance
  • High Yield Torpedo: Launches multiple torpedoes

Rationale for Photon Torpedo vs Quantum Torpedo differences: Photons get a higher Crit Severity as the their higher firing rate already means more crits, Quantum Torpedoes have a lower Crit Severity as they already hit hard. Basically, this is a "compensating advantage" for the two.

Plasma Torpedo
  • Base: Fast Recharge, High DPS, Low Burst
  • Special Ability: Inflicts 35 % damage to shields, Plasma Fires
  • High Yield Torpedo: Launches single, targetable projectile.
Note: The Plasma Torpedo provides an interesting mix - with HYT, it has high burst potential, but normally it's more a DPS weapon. The targetable nature of its projectile naturally weakens this burst feature and keeps it somewhat in line. The increased damage to shields makes its DPS more interesting and fits canon better, where the Plasma Torpedo also quickly destroyed shields.

Transphasic Torpedo
  • Base: Slow Recharge, Low DPS, High Burst
  • Special Ability: +30 % bleedthrough
  • High Yield Torpedo: Launches single, targetable projectile with +60 % bleedthrough
Note: Making the High Yield version also targetable but giving it a higher bleedthrough makes it feel more impressive, closer to as it was in the show.

Chroniton Torpedo
  • Base: Fast Recharge, High DPS, Low Burst
  • Special Ability: +10 % Bleedthrough, Radiation Damage and Secondary Explosion
  • High Yield Torpedo: Launches multiple torpedoes
Note: The Chroniton Torpedo basically turns into a fast-firing Har'Peng, which overall makes it closer to the canon versions of it. The extra bleedthrough is a feature that also fits the canonical description where it's chroniton effect was used to bypass shields.

Tri-Cobalt
No Changes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
06-12-2011, 09:40 AM
Torpedoes should be quite viable against shields (as per canon), instead of the relatively tiny piff that we get now.

My ideas (with no math behind them):
- Transphasic: Increase the amount of bleedthrough per rank of HYT, in addition to increase the number of torps fired. Base damage needs boosted as well. That way, the bleedthrough (20% + 10% innate = 30%) can be kept the same. Each rank of HYT can increase the bleedthrough by maybe 5-8%? That way, and HYT 3 salvo would land you 4 torps each doing ~55% bleedthrough.

- Chroniton: I really like the modified Hargh'Peng idea for these. Keep the slow proc, add in a final detonation proc. (Though that wasn't really what was intended when that torp blew up on Voyager; it's detonator just failed to go off at the right time)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorFury View Post
I believe part of the problem with torps really has to do with the changes they made to tac team. A cruiser with 12k shields per facing now has 48k worth of shields you effectively have to go through combined with say 40% shield resistance and you are looking at essentially 67K. That's a lot of shields and it only takes a little bit of those to drastically reduce a torps damage as we all know. When I fly my carrier its pretty easy to just pop my tac team even though I turn like a brick.
I completely agree with this; My RSV with TacTeam 1 + EPtS 1 (let alone TSS/RSF, etc) is making you fight through almost 76000 shield HP with an Alpha. If I were using the same shields/spec for a Nebula or D'Kyr, you'd have to go through over 83000 with EPtS 3. Again, that's without TSS or RSF's regen/resistance boost. TacTeam needs changed such that TT1 is only barely better than mashing distribute shields. As it is, there's no reason (nor has there ever been, really) to use TT 2 or 3. But, that's a whole 'nother story.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-12-2011, 11:13 AM
All this is good but targetable torps either need a speed boost, or have the targettable part removed since they move so slow. Anyone with EPtE can out run a tric or Plasma HYT. I mean really if you are going to make a projectile targetable at least make it require some skill instead oh look a tric at 5 KM let me kill this escort then take care of that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-12-2011, 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvs5191 View Post


I completely agree with this; My RSV with TacTeam 1 + EPtS 1 (let alone TSS/RSF, etc) is making you fight through almost 76000 shield HP with an Alpha. If I were using the same shields/spec for a Nebula or D'Kyr, you'd have to go through over 83000 with EPtS 3. Again, that's without TSS or RSF's regen/resistance boost. TacTeam needs changed such that TT1 is only barely better than mashing distribute shields. As it is, there's no reason (nor has there ever been, really) to use TT 2 or 3. But, that's a whole 'nother story.

I have noticed that my shields distribute faster with TT1 and my programmable key that does an auto distribute. and if I chain them it is stupid easy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-12-2011, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampir888 View Post
Let's face it not only Torps need a balance pass but also energy weapons. Three (Phaser/Disruptor/AP) of them are used by the majority. Then there is a big gap before you have Tetryons. Another huge gap later you have Polaron/Plasma. On a big part because of the different amount of skill points needed. A problem energy weapons share with Torps. And I hope in the future when they change the skill tree and hopefully divide ground/space skills they will change this too.
Energy weapons don't have quite the same problem as torpedoes. All energy weapons do about the same thing, it's just that some have a better proc, or a cheaper skill investment.

Torpedoes barely work at all, so what should be minor differences (like between photons and quantums) end up dividing them between "barely effective" and "not effective at all".

You could load out a ship with all plasma weapons if you wanted, and while it wouldn't be as good as all disruptors, you would still burn down shields and destroy hulls with it.

Energy weapons do need work, especially in their skills, but it's a whole different problem than with projectiles.

Quote:
Another problem is energy weapons do too much dmg to hull. While the dmg of torps against shields is much more diminished. Two ways to solve this problem. First increase the dmg of torps against shields, second decrease the dmg of energy against hull. I prefer the later one because else you will get full torpedo boats. On the other hand increased dmg of mines against shields might be useful because you can't time them to hit an unshielded enemy.
Torpedo damage wouldn't need to be increased to match the best energy weapons to just make them effective. If the highest damage for torpedoes was similar to a beam array, the torpedo would still be less effective against shields because they can't be combined into a broadside. An all-torpedo boat would be unable to breach shields.

I could see toning down energy damage against hulls a bit, but even with things perfectly balanced we would need to rely on beams for damage outside of the front and rear 90. Beams right now aren't great against hull, they're just better than torpedoes because the beams can knock down shields too. Cannons are better against hulls, but they are supposed to be.






What if the difference between hull and shield damage was reduced, but projectile weapons had different accuracy multipliers? Make torpedoes the ideal choice for really clobbering a stationary target, but unreliable against fast-moving targets.
Quote:
When will we see any changes? Beside bugfixes I wouldn't expect any real change before season 5. The time after the launch of S4 they will probably focus on ground.
you're probably right.

I was just concerned that Cryptic might not be aware of how bad projectile weapons are. In PvE they are fine because NPCs leave their shields down long enough to land torpedoes on the hull, but in PvP they are next to useless.

It's okay that some torpedo types need to be timed perfectly to be effective, but other type ought to be a bit more "spacebar-friendly".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-12-2011, 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
All this is good but targetable torps either need a speed boost, or have the targettable part removed since they move so slow. Anyone with EPtE can out run a tric or Plasma HYT. I mean really if you are going to make a projectile targetable at least make it require some skill instead oh look a tric at 5 KM let me kill this escort then take care of that.
Outrunning the targetable torps is canon. Shooting them down is less so.

The targetable nature wouldn't bother me if they did a ton of damage. You can protect your torpedo by getting *really* close before firing, but that added difficulty ought to come with a major reward. Trics are almost okay, but I kind of think the combination of being targetable *and* having a super-slow reload is a bit much. The other targetable torpedoes are in worse shape though, because they do poor damage in addition to being targetable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-12-2011, 03:25 PM
Quote:
What if the difference between hull and shield damage was reduced, but projectile weapons had different accuracy multipliers? Make torpedoes the ideal choice for really clobbering a stationary target, but unreliable against fast-moving targets.
Torpedoes are homing projectiles, I see no reason why they should hit worse than energy weapons? If anything, energy weapons need lower base accuracy and torpedoes a higher one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-12-2011, 11:52 PM
That's something I would like to see:

Shields
  • Covariant Array : increase in natural regen tick to 6s
  • Shield Array / Resilient Array : increase natural regen tick to 5s
  • Regenerative Array : leave as they are

Tactical Consoles
  • Lower the bonus from energy weapon consoles to 1/3
  • Increase base dmg values of energy weapons to compensate, so the overall effect with 4 consoles remains the same
  • Leave torpedo consoles as they are

Create some unique tactical consoles for crafting, instead plain dmg one.
  • Enhanced targetting computers (accuracy bonus)
  • enhanced torpedo launchers (wider torpedo arc)
  • multitorpedo launchers (removed shared cooldown)
etc. etc.

Energy Weapons
  • Beams : 75% less dmg against hull (Beam Overload will bypass this)
  • Cannons: 50% less dmg against hull

Torpedoes
  • Increase base dmg by 50%
  • 50% less dmg against shields

Cruisers / Cruiser hybrids (nebula, deep space science vessel and such slow turning beasts)

Enhanced torpedo launchers - 135 degree torpedo arc (same as proposed console)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
06-13-2011, 01:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalnar
That's something I would like to see:

Shields
  • Covariant Array : increase in natural regen tick to 6s
  • Shield Array / Resilient Array : increase natural regen tick to 5s
  • Regenerative Array : leave as they are

Tactical Consoles
  • Lower the bonus from energy weapon consoles to 1/3
  • Increase base dmg values of energy weapons to compensate, so the overall effect with 4 consoles remains the same
  • Leave torpedo consoles as they are

Create some unique tactical consoles for crafting, instead plain dmg one.
  • Enhanced targetting computers (accuracy bonus)
  • enhanced torpedo launchers (wider torpedo arc)
  • multitorpedo launchers (removed shared cooldown)
etc. etc.

Energy Weapons
  • Beams : 75% less dmg against hull (Beam Overload will bypass this)
  • Cannons: 50% less dmg against hull

Torpedoes
  • Increase base dmg by 50%
  • 50% less dmg against shields

Cruisers / Cruiser hybrids (nebula, deep space science vessel and such slow turning beasts)

Enhanced torpedo launchers - 135 degree torpedo arc (same as proposed console)

Let me guess.......Cruiser Pilot?
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