Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1071
08-26-2011, 01:16 AM
Another no on the commendation specialization. And some justification for this:

You limit things that make characters more powerful, not just things that advance characters.

The skill system makes characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit that.
Bridge and kit powers make characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit them.
The active roster makes characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit that.

However, everything we've seen about commendation categories does not make characters more powerful (except so far as it contributes to the above). It adds all sorts of advancement options: titles, accolades, and in the case of diplomacy (presumably marauding as well) travel powers. The closest it gets to giving power is that it gives more doffs and boffs, but just having more doesn't make a character more powerful, since there's always a limit on how many can be contributing at any given time.

That kind of system, it doesn't really make sense or seem fair to players to arbitrarily limit.

On that subject, I also don't particularly think it needs or should be made to directly make players more powerful for the sake of limiting it. There's quite a bit of power creep in the game already to consider adding more on top of whatever the active roster is already adding. Also, if you allow us to, say, get max in three categories, many ambassadors ate up a third of their limits months before the limit even existing, and hypothetically based on the information in this thread, I'm not sure diplomacy would be a track I would choose if it meant excluding another.

People are going to max it. Even if it takes a while, they'll max it. But with everything we've seen, the only advantage it sounds like they'll have is having access to all of the unique commendation doffs. If the active roster adds enough power, or the unique doffs are just so good that having more of these is a tangible advantage, then either the doffs or the active roster itself are overtuned.

If limiting it is just a way to keep people from maxing it... well, all that really does is lower the ceiling. People still max it when they hit the limit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1072
08-26-2011, 01:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Another no on the commendation specialization. And some justification for this:

You limit things that make characters more powerful, not just things that advance characters.

The skill system makes characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit that.
Bridge and kit powers make characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit them.
The active roster makes characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit that.

However, everything we've seen about commendation categories does not make characters more powerful (except so far as it contributes to the above). It adds all sorts of advancement options: titles, accolades, and in the case of diplomacy (presumably marauding as well) travel powers. The closest it gets to giving power is that it gives more doffs and boffs, but just having more doesn't make a character more powerful, since there's always a limit on how many can be contributing at any given time.

That kind of system, it doesn't really make sense or seem fair to players to arbitrarily limit.

The limit could be due to the size of the data store needed if potentially every character of every player was to use this system.. So could be a economical disadvantage to have it limitless
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1073
08-26-2011, 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Another no on the commendation specialization. And some justification for this:

You limit things that make characters more powerful, not just things that advance characters.

The skill system makes characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit that.
Bridge and kit powers make characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit them.
The active roster makes characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit that.
...
... I was going to make a comment on the sill system, but meh it doesn't really belong here.
The relevant discussions are linked in my sig...


Onto less off-topic matters...
Someone was talking about boarding party earlier... And I had a thought.
You send off unnamed crew and they either succeed or fail, by affecting the enemy or getting shot down..

Alpha doff system? XD

I mean it is similar ^_^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1074
08-26-2011, 02:05 AM
Heh. I suppose I walked right into that one without even meaning to.

First, let me emphasize that I agree with all of your reasoning as to why we want to avoid specialization in tiering commendation categories. You have all listed many good reasons, and that is why this initial iteration does not, it should be noted, have any such specialization requirements.

That being said, there are certain design considerations that could make this necessary. Emphasis - could. I think this is an outside possibility, and am fairly confident we can avoid them.

The issue comes down, ultimately, to pacing. The commendation category progression system must provide a sense of achievable progression for both the casual player as well as the hardcore player of the system. Moreover, that progression must be linked to tangible rewards that feel equitable to the effort expended in getting them.

Every assignment successfully completed grants rewards, usually numerics, sometimes more substantial things in the nature of unique duty officers, items, devices and anything else we can put together.

In addition to these per-assignment rewards, when you hit a tier in the commendation system, there has to be a reason why you care. That is, more rewards, or the opening up of more opportunities to get better rewards than you were able to get before you hit that commendation tier. Titles, unique duty and bridge officers, accolades, and so on are already on the page, but we want to avoid the situation that some have complained with the Diplomacy system where the rewards do not seem to justify the effort expended.

Now, in an ideal world we would have unlimited resources for rewards and could simply make the progression path and rewards virtually infinite with a multitude of rewards.

Obviously, we don't have unlimited resources for rewards, so instead we have to meter them in a way that achieves all of the above goals - pacing that feels fair for the effort expended, a high ceiling for hardcore players, low-hanging enough rewards for more casual players, rewards for individual assignments, additional rewards for tiering.

In addition to all of this, this first iteration is intended to be only the beginning, and we have later plans that all of this has to feed into and support; some of these plans we have been able to hint at, other aspects we aren't ready quite yet to talk about.

What does this mean?

This first iteration has no limitations on how many commendation categories you can advance in, nor any limits (other than the standard Tier 4 limitation) on what a player can achieve. We are trying very hard to keep it this way. As testing progresses on Redshirt, Tribble, and the system is rolled out to Holodeck, we will be looking very closely at many factors including how fast players are progressing, the delta between casual users of the system and hardcore users, and reported levels of satisfaction and perceived fairness of the system.

Ultimately, we will go with the specific mechanics that we feel are best serving the community in these goals. Hopefully, we will be able to structure the progression in this system in such a way that whether you are a casual user of the system or a hardcore user, you feel satisfied with the system. I think this is an achievable goal. I think, moreover, that it is more likely than not that we can do this without hard limits.

The goal is to make a system you guys enjoy. Let's see how it plays out in testing, and go on from what we all learn there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1075
08-26-2011, 02:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Heh. I suppose I walked right into that one without even meaning to.

First, let me emphasize that I agree with all of your reasoning as to why we want to avoid specialization in tiering commendation categories. You have all listed many good reasons, and that is why this initial iteration does not, it should be noted, have any such specialization requirements.

That being said, there are certain design considerations that could make this necessary. Emphasis - could. I think this is an outside possibility, and am fairly confident we can avoid them.

The issue comes down, ultimately, to pacing. The commendation category progression system must provide a sense of achievable progression for both the casual player as well as the hardcore player of the system. Moreover, that progression must be linked to tangible rewards that feel equitable to the effort expended in getting them.

Every assignment successfully completed grants rewards, usually numerics, sometimes more substantial things in the nature of unique duty officers, items, devices and anything else we can put together.

In addition to these per-assignment rewards, when you hit a tier in the commendation system, there has to be a reason why you care. That is, more rewards, or the opening up of more opportunities to get better rewards than you were able to get before you hit that commendation tier. Titles, unique duty and bridge officers, accolades, and so on are already on the page, but we want to avoid the situation that some have complained with the Diplomacy system where the rewards do not seem to justify the effort expended.

Now, in an ideal world, we would have unlimited resources for rewards, and could simply make the progression path and rewards virtually infinite with a multitude of rewards that even a relatively casual player could progress through such that that player feels the system is a worthwhile investment of their time.

Obviously, we don't have unlimited resources for rewards or anything else, so we have to meter them in a way that achieves all of the above goals - pacing that feels fair for the effort expended, a high ceiling for hardcore players, low-hanging enough rewards for more casual players, rewards for individual assignments, additional rewards for tiering.

In addition to all of this, this first iteration is intended to be only the beginning, and we have later plans that all of this has to feed into and support; some of these plans we have been able to hint at, other aspects we aren't ready quite yet to talk about.

What does this mean?

This first iteration has no limitations on how many commendation categories you can advance in, nor any limits (other than the standard Tier 4 limitation) on what a player can achieve. We are trying very hard to keep it this way. As testing progresses on Redshirt, Tribble, and the system is rolled out to Holodeck, we will be looking at these factors, including how fast players are progressing, the delta between casual users of the system and hardcore users, reported levels of satisfaction and perceived fairness of the system.

Ultimately, we will go with the specific mechanics that we feel are best serving the community in these goals. Hopefully, we will be able to structure the progression in this system in such a way that whether you are a casual user of the system or a hardcore user, you feel satisfied with the system. I think this is an achievable goal. I think, moreover, that it is more likely than not that we can do this without hard limits.

The goal is to make a system you guys enjoy. Let's see how it plays out in testing, and go from what we all learn there.
*cough, C-points,cough* Was worth a try....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1076
08-26-2011, 02:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Another no on the commendation specialization. And some justification for this:

You limit things that make characters more powerful, not just things that advance characters.

The skill system makes characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit that.
Bridge and kit powers make characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit them.
The active roster makes characters more powerful, it makes sense to limit that.

However, everything we've seen about commendation categories does not make characters more powerful (except so far as it contributes to the above). It adds all sorts of advancement options: titles, accolades, and in the case of diplomacy (presumably marauding as well) travel powers. The closest it gets to giving power is that it gives more doffs and boffs, but just having more doesn't make a character more powerful, since there's always a limit on how many can be contributing at any given time.

That kind of system, it doesn't really make sense or seem fair to players to arbitrarily limit.

On that subject, I also don't particularly think it needs or should be made to directly make players more powerful for the sake of limiting it. There's quite a bit of power creep in the game already to consider adding more on top of whatever the active roster is already adding. Also, if you allow us to, say, get max in three categories, many ambassadors ate up a third of their limits months before the limit even existing, and hypothetically based on the information in this thread, I'm not sure diplomacy would be a track I would choose if it meant excluding another.

People are going to max it. Even if it takes a while, they'll max it. But with everything we've seen, the only advantage it sounds like they'll have is having access to all of the unique commendation doffs. If the active roster adds enough power, or the unique doffs are just so good that having more of these is a tangible advantage, then either the doffs or the active roster itself are overtuned.

If limiting it is just a way to keep people from maxing it... well, all that really does is lower the ceiling. People still max it when they hit the limit.
This. No forced or limited specialization please.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1077
08-26-2011, 02:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
Heh. I suppose I walked right into that one without even meaning to.

First, let me emphasize that I agree with all of your reasoning as to why we want to avoid specialization in tiering commendation categories. You have all listed many good reasons, and that is why this initial iteration does not, it should be noted, have any such specialization requirements.

That being said, there are certain design considerations that could make this necessary. Emphasis - could. I think this is an outside possibility, and am fairly confident we can avoid them.

The issue comes down, ultimately, to pacing. The commendation category progression system must provide a sense of achievable progression for both the casual player as well as the hardcore player of the system. Moreover, that progression must be linked to tangible rewards that feel equitable to the effort expended in getting them.

Every assignment successfully completed grants rewards, usually numerics, sometimes more substantial things in the nature of unique duty officers, items, devices and anything else we can put together.

In addition to these per-assignment rewards, when you hit a tier in the commendation system, there has to be a reason why you care. That is, more rewards, or the opening up of more opportunities to get better rewards than you were able to get before you hit that commendation tier. Titles, unique duty and bridge officers, accolades, and so on are already on the page, but we want to avoid the situation that some have complained with the Diplomacy system where the rewards do not seem to justify the effort expended.

Now, in an ideal world we would have unlimited resources for rewards and could simply make the progression path and rewards virtually infinite with a multitude of rewards.

Obviously, we don't have unlimited resources for rewards, so instead we have to meter them in a way that achieves all of the above goals - pacing that feels fair for the effort expended, a high ceiling for hardcore players, low-hanging enough rewards for more casual players, rewards for individual assignments, additional rewards for tiering.

In addition to all of this, this first iteration is intended to be only the beginning, and we have later plans that all of this has to feed into and support; some of these plans we have been able to hint at, other aspects we aren't ready quite yet to talk about.

What does this mean?

This first iteration has no limitations on how many commendation categories you can advance in, nor any limits (other than the standard Tier 4 limitation) on what a player can achieve. We are trying very hard to keep it this way. As testing progresses on Redshirt, Tribble, and the system is rolled out to Holodeck, we will be looking very closely at many factors including how fast players are progressing, the delta between casual users of the system and hardcore users, reported levels of satisfaction and perceived fairness of the system.

Ultimately, we will go with the specific mechanics that we feel are best serving the community in these goals. Hopefully, we will be able to structure the progression in this system in such a way that whether you are a casual user of the system or a hardcore user, you feel satisfied with the system. I think this is an achievable goal. I think, moreover, that it is more likely than not that we can do this without hard limits.

The goal is to make a system you guys enjoy. Let's see how it plays out in testing, and go on from what we all learn there.
Thanks for the update.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1078
08-26-2011, 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic
wall of text
Back on page 25 I already proposed dimishing returns on comendation XP based on how far you've progressed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1079
08-26-2011, 06:24 AM
I find people will specialize themselves. In most MMOs with crafting categories, crafters only max out a few. Most of the players that use Duty Officer assignments will have a few favorites so there is no need for forced specialization IMO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1080
08-26-2011, 06:44 AM
Agreed. Most, if not all, players will try all of them but some players *cough* roleplayers *cough* will post their own limitations at high tiers. Even then, will still play others.
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