Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-30-2011, 05:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conundrum-NSA
I disagree completely. People grind missions TO LEVEL and GET GEAR. Do you think we enjoy doing the same mission for 3rd...4th...5th time? How about if we could get some rewards for doing something new.

This is an MMO and it's long been a given in MMOs....do quest = get reward. This is completely independent of whether you enjoy the quest or not, some are good...and some seriously suck. I'm trying to be polite, but the comments of "you should just do them for the fun" wreaks of condescending arrogance.
Really? I didn't think I was being arrogant at all, nor condescending. We disagree, sure, but I don't think I've been anything but nice here. Also, I didn't say we should just do them for the fun, I said I was okay with them not having rewards because they are fun. Not all of them, of course, but enough to make my point valid.

If you'd prefer a different tack on the subject, adding rewards to Foundry Missions makes things more difficult for Cryptic in assessing those player-made missions (sorting the missions by real difficulty, so that one-clickers don't provide rewards, for example). It would certainly get more people to play the Foundry Missions if there were rewards, but at the same time with less Foundry Missions available (as surely the one-clickers wouldn't be giving rewards most players would bother with, if any at all), people would become just as bored with Foundry Missions as they do with repeating other content.

My point is that player-made content is fine without rewards, because they make a fun diversion from other content. If people just do three a day for the daily quest reward, that helps keep those Foundry quests fresh, and thus feel less like a chore to do.

Maybe the problem is with the super-easy Foundry missions, that simply exist to knock out the daily with? If they weren't around, and only the fully developed Foundry Missions were available for play, then perhaps the rewards for the daily quest could be improved to match the increased effort involved?

Just a few thoughts on the subject. I'll stop rambling now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
06-30-2011, 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazag
As a foundry author myself. I would love some proper rewards for foundry missions. Why? Because why both with the foundry no matter how fun it is when you can have similiar fun AND rewards doing normal stuff.

However cryptic are in an odd place, how do they assign rewards to foundry missions?

They could either do an automatic process but then any automatic process could be gamed by an unscrupulous foundry author or manual which requires simply far too much work for the amount of missions their are.

They're in a bit of a catch 22 in the rewards ans I'd love to see it resolved I'm just not sure how they'd do it.
Well about the only thing they can do is limit the number of foundry missions you can do in X amount of time. Like I said it takes about 20-30 (average) to do an explore mission...sometimes you get a bunch of easy ones and are done in 10 minutes and sometimes you get 3 kill 5 packs of enemies that take longer. But in that time you get 1 emblem (or level appropriate badges). You can do the same with the foundry, yes people could game and just do a click the console mission every 30 minutes, but they really aren't gaining anything. The only other exploit I can potentially see is trying to do explores and click the console foundry missions together, but even that would be time consuming with all the travel involved and at most would allow you to get 2 emblems every 30 minutes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
06-30-2011, 07:08 AM
I would love to see some better rewards for Foundry missions as, as a mainly Klingon player, I've been leveling by doing a lot of UGC. I'd do it anyway, because the cream of the crop missions are better than anything in the game originally. I love supporting the creativity of authors and love it when they get the right Klingon feel.

But I understand Cryptic's dilemma concerning exploitation, so I'm not sure what can be done.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-30-2011, 08:09 AM
Truth be told I really do play the Foundry missions for the stories and to have something to do on a max level character. I get the equivalent of one badge per mission...seems fair to me.

The only thing I could see being increased is the amount of experience it drops for lower level characters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-30-2011, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conundrum-NSA View Post
This is an MMO, I (and I would lay odds most others) do quests to get rewards.
I'm with you right there 100% up to the definition of what constitutes a "reward" for Foundry missions.

You see, to me, as a Foundry author, a reward I'd actually want to give players who played through my missions would be something like a souvenir I was able to create myself in the Foundry and my players can remember my missions (and thus me) by having that souvenir perhaps as a Trophy to put in their ship.

I simply disagree with your definition of what rewards Foundry missions should bring to those who play them because of several reasons but the real important thing here is that it's not Foundry missions who need to have a "reward", it's you and players who think like you who do, and the game already has enough reward-bestowing missions in my opinion, so I'd rather Cryptic invest their time towards other goals than this.

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-30-2011, 09:13 AM
I got a reward. It was a level appropriate item. I could have chose a level appropriate badge, but I went for the item.

Also about 200 something XP.

There's a foundry mission daily wrapper that gives you rewards for compleing three foundry missions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-30-2011, 09:31 AM
Quote:
I got a reward. It was a level appropriate item. I could have chose a level appropriate badge, but I went for the item.

Also about 200 something XP.

There's a foundry mission daily wrapper that gives you rewards for compleing three foundry missions.
And it shouldn't be a daily, it should be a hourly. And it shouldn't require to do 3 missions. Some missions last an hour or more, but the current reward scheme awards the people most that use it to play 3 click 1-click-and-done mission.

I don't do many foundry missions, because frankly, I enjoy PvP more, even though there are a lot very enjoyable Foundry missions with excellent story. But this is a game, not a novel or a TV movie. Games to me involve challenge and test of skills, and I don't get that from PvE. No matter how good the story, my "gamer" needs are not satisfied by a Foundry mission.

But when I make a new character, PvP isn't a good way to level. So I would love to resort to Foundry missions. I can't avoid the weak game aspect of PvE anyway, but at least I could get some interesting stories out of it, stories I haven't played 3 times already. Unfortunately, I can't really do that effectively.

People grind in this game, for skill points, for emblems. They do missinos like cold comfort 20 times in a row to level their toon. These people don't get anything out of the Foundry, and just for one single reason - the reward scheme sucks. It's pointless to appeal to the "noble" player that just wants to enjoy a story. It's not enough. And the reward scheme lead to people trying to build exploit missins with chained warp core epxlosions and the like.

I don't know how hard improving the rewards for the Foundry is, without avoiding exploits. But something like a counter that just tracks how much time you spend in a foundry mission could go a long way to create a reward.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-30-2011, 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conundrum-NSA

There needs to be some reason to do foundry missions besides "just to do them"
I think you're probably correct here with regard to most players, myself usually included; however, you haven't made a convincing argument over why there even needs to be any more players playing foundry missions. Cryptic made the foundry because players wanted to be able to create their own missions, and they are now able to. I also haven't heard an outcry from foundry creators that there are no players playing any foundry missions.

The only reason left to add rewards would be to increase subscription numbers to the game, and I suspect that effect would be questionable at best. Especially when you consider that any reward that made players feel they ought to do a Foundry mission to get said reward would probably turn off more players than get others excited about it.

Many players have expressed that they have no interest in doing content created by other players, and there doesn't seem to a good reason for Cryptic to try to bribe them to do otherwise.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-30-2011, 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspired View Post
I think you're probably correct here with regard to most players, myself usually included; however, you haven't made a convincing argument over why there even needs to be any more players playing foundry missions. Cryptic made the foundry because players wanted to be able to create their own missions, and they are now able to. I also haven't heard an outcry from foundry creators that there are no players playing any foundry missions.

The only reason left to add rewards would be to increase subscription numbers to the game, and I suspect that effect would be questionable at best. Especially when you consider that any reward that made players feel they ought to do a Foundry mission to get said reward would probably turn off more players than get others excited about it.

Many players have expressed that they have no interest in doing content created by other players, and there doesn't seem to a good reason for Cryptic to try to bribe them to do otherwise.

I'm going to go with a bit of simple logic on this one. If people want to create missions, they want people to actually play them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
06-30-2011, 06:39 PM
I actually have a suggestion on how to pull this off -

Completing a mission gets you a choice of 3 random items from the loot database, just like if you'd killed a mob; except consumables and tribbles are not options. That said you could get anything from white to purple.

Rarity would be rolled first, and be consistent across all 3 options, then each of the 3 remaining options would be rolled randomly from that point.

An example:

Mission Complete:

Rarity Roll - Green

Item 1 - Covariant Shield Array [Cap]

Item 2 - Wide Beam Phaser Pistol [Dmg]

Item 3 - Plasma Split Beam Rifle [CritH]

You'd get to pick one.

=======

Now to prevent abuse - I actually think I have a reasonable scheme for that.

In order for rewards to be enabled, a mission must meet all the following criteria:

It must be out of the Review stage.

It must have a minimum of 20 complete play-throughs by different individuals.

It must have an average completion time of 20 minutes or more

Average completion time is calculated as follows:

Timer starts when you enter the first door. Timer pauses if you log off, and unpauses when you re-enter any section of the mission. Timer ends when the last objective is finished. (Not when it's turned in.)

The completion time of each player is then averaged. Eventually this means that extreme outliers cease to matter* and the true speed of the mission can be gauged. If the same player does a mission multiple times, their new completion times are added as separate entries, rather than replacements for the old time.

----

I chose 20 minutes because it's long enough to tell a decent story (roughly the length of a half hour TV show minus the commercials), and short enough that if you're sticking to storytelling you'll probably hit that length without even trying. Meanwhile someone trying to abuse the system isn't going to be getting rewards any faster than they could if they just farmed normal mobs. (In fact probably quite a bit slower.)

20 playthroughs by different people also may seem a bit high; but I think that's a good lower limit to prevent people with a fleet of friends from (easily) abusing the system. They could still theoretically do it since there are huge uber fleets out there... but I think the effort required for such abuse would actually end up outweighing the abuse itself most probably.

The end result I think, is a system that offers rewards; potentially useful ones depending on your luck... but is neither consistent enough nor fast enough to be worth abusing. The reward is more of a 'thank you' than the 'goal' if you will.

Just how I'd do it if it were mine to do.

*So someone who wants a mission to give a reward and who thus just AFKs in the mission for a half an hour, tapping keys once in awhile to stay logged in, will not have much effect at all.
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