Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 91
07-18-2011, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidius View Post
I know sir. I was merely using the vernacular that others attribute to these sort of purchases. Those who don't agree with ship purchases in general would probably agree less with one-time ship purchases per character
Understood It's a change in business model for us too - and it's often an uncomfortable change to accept however in its defense it will increase the quality of the game by a lot and will guarantee a great deal of additional new content, IP accurate content, etc.

Paying extra money blows, I know... but I think it will up the bar of quality quite a bit. When Cryptic generates more money, it will have noticeable improvements upon the game


I'm glad so many people are on board with the c store model, even if they are on board reluctantly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 92
07-18-2011, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnLogan
Understood It's a change in business model for us too - and it's often an uncomfortable change to accept however in its defense it will increase the quality of the game by a lot and will guarantee a great deal of additional new content, IP accurate content, etc.

Paying extra money blows, I know... but I think it will up the bar of quality quite a bit. When Cryptic generates more money, it will have noticeable improvements upon the game


I'm glad so many people are on board with the c store model, even if they are on board reluctantly.
I have 12 characters,and when more playable factions are added that number will increase.However,with the per character unlocks.....it's getting expensive.....and I did pay for the extra character slots.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 93
07-18-2011, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnLogan
Understood It's a change in business model for us too - and it's often an uncomfortable change to accept however in its defense it will increase the quality of the game by a lot and will guarantee a great deal of additional new content, IP accurate content, etc.

Paying extra money blows, I know... but I think it will up the bar of quality quite a bit. When Cryptic generates more money, it will have noticeable improvements upon the game


I'm glad so many people are on board with the c store model, even if they are on board reluctantly.
I've got my own opinions about micro-transactions, but without derailing this thread too much, I don't mind giving people who "make cool things that I like" a little extra money to "make MORE cool things that I like"

(Don't let the avatar fool you, that's just more of a spoof on the obnoxiously huge button on the launcher that was recently added.)

Regardless of how we get the ships, THANKS! for all of the cool work you do for STO!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 94
07-18-2011, 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnLogan
Understood It's a change in business model for us too - and it's often an uncomfortable change to accept however in its defense it will increase the quality of the game by a lot and will guarantee a great deal of additional new content, IP accurate content, etc.

Paying extra money blows, I know... but I think it will up the bar of quality quite a bit. When Cryptic generates more money, it will have noticeable improvements upon the game


I'm glad so many people are on board with the c store model, even if they are on board reluctantly.
All my fears realised. Bad news.
How long before this miraculous increase in game quality appears? You say any changes takes anywhere between months and years. So how many years will it be?

In my opinion S4 has been a systematic technical failure regards to bugs. Impressive for the small team you have but still, impressively bad for a lot of your paying customers. How will forcing people to give you more money help say within the next 2 months? I suspect I wont be around for that long. I've already given you all the help you are going to get and now you want more?

I am not a bottomless pit.

IP accurate content should be a gimme for a game based on an IP? What kind of statement is that? Are you saying that if you don't get the funds that you will just throw us any old rubbish?

I'm reminded of a recent event here in the UK.

There once was a football (soccer to you Americans) team called Manchester City. Never won anything and one day they were bought out by a very wealthy man. He pumped hundreds of million of pounds into the club and everybody said (including them) that this was the beginning of a new era - that dominance was on the way.

It didn't work. They are better, yes, but still didn't win a thing of note. They lost their 'heart' and they just threw money (fan's money) at every problem and created a Frankenstein's monster. All without winning. People still give them money because its the club (IP) that's in their own hearts and they want to see it succeed, all the while without success. The club is preying and relying on that.

I suspect you are going to go the same way. I am not just reluctant, I am disappointed and deeply upset at you all for allowing this. You could have made enough money another way, you could have had my money some other way and now you won't get any. You've chosen the quick and easy path and we all know where that leads...

You are a business. Yes we understand you need to make money but the IP is NOT yours and will be here a long time after your company ends. This is because of the fans who have it in their heart, not because of your business model.

Sad day to actually hear this. Kudos to your Logan for having the stones to lay it out flat on the table and not keep everyone in the dark like the rest of your team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 95
07-18-2011, 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KappaTau
All my fears realised. Bad news.
How long before this miraculous increase in game quality appears? You say any changes takes anywhere between months and years. So how many years will it be?

In my opinion S4 has been a systematic technical failure regards to bugs. Impressive for the small team you have but still, impressively bad for a lot of your paying customers. How will forcing people to give you more money help say within the next 2 months? I suspect I wont be around for that long. I've already given you all the help you are going to get and now you want more?

I am not a bottomless pit.

IP accurate content should be a gimme for a game based on an IP? What kind of statement is that? Are you saying that if you don't get the funds that you will just throw us any old rubbish?

I'm reminded of a recent event here in the UK.

There once was a football (soccer to you Americans) team called Manchester City. Never won anything and one day they were bought out by a very wealthy man. He pumped hundreds of million of pounds into the club and everybody said (including them) that this was the beginning of a new era - that dominance was on the way.

It didn't work. They are better, yes, but still didn't win a thing of note. They lost their 'heart' and they just threw money (fan's money) at every problem and created a Frankenstein's monster. All without winning. People still give them money because its the club (IP) that's in their own hearts and they want to see it succeed, all the while without success. The club is preying and relying on that.

I suspect you are going to go the same way. I am not just reluctant, I am disappointed and deeply upset at you all for allowing this. You could have made enough money another way, you could have had my money some other way and now you won't get any. You've chosen the quick and easy path and we all know where that leads...

You are a business. Yes we understand you need to make money but the IP is NOT yours and will be here a long time after your company ends. This is because of the fans who have it in their heart, not because of your business model.

Sad day to actually hear this. Kudos to your Logan for having the stones to lay it out flat on the table and not keep everyone in the dark like the rest of your team.
You have legitimate grievances sir. One major advantage to greater revenue will be the ability for me to increase the size of my team and create more content with higher accuracy.

Yes, IP consistency should be a given for a game like this, sadly when STO was in pre-production, and I was not a part of Cryptic, this was not the mentality. The game has paid a terrible price for this by alienating a massive part of the fan base, and since I've joined the team I've done everything I can to remedy this. Of course, I could always do more and will always do more, and the rate at which I CAN do more is dependent on my ability to try to make this game profitable. I desperately need at least one more person working with me...

Now that I've inherited the ship team as my own and have been promoted to ship lead, once the team staffs back up it will be my number 1 goal to ensure the bar is sufficiently raised with accuracy (to the greatest degree possible within limited game budgets) being my primary goal, consistency within the style of variants, and balance of content for KDF and Fed. Now that I am in charge, I can enforce this vision once I acquire a new ship artist or two... something that I push for every day.

So I give you my word that the bar will be raised and it will be raised within the year. I'd do it faster if I could, and I'm going to be sacrificing my lunch breaks to do fixes every day now... except Fridays... that's pizza day.

*edit*

concerning your dissatisfaction with the c-store business model... I understand how this is unpleasant. I don't have time to present an argument in defense of the cstore model, but at least know that I agree with you to an extent, but I think that it will have its advantages... that is a discussion for another thread and another day. back to work
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 96
07-18-2011, 03:56 PM
I have nothing but respect for your words Logan. I *can* read between the lines of your replies. You answer from your own perspective well and with honour.

I truly hope that all you wish comes to pass, however, my points remain and I am a sad panda.

Money can't buy you love. It only buys you somebody on a rate, per hour. I guess that's what Cryptic has decided it wants. My love for ST will never die, my wallet stays in it's vacuum packed seal for STO. I apologise.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 97 Cheers!
07-18-2011, 03:57 PM
As a ship geek All i have to say is Cheers to you CaptLogan!

*hands Logan some coca*

Keep up the great work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 98
07-18-2011, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnLogan
except Fridays... that's pizza day.
So to get you to work Fridays Lunch time we need Dan to cancel Pizza day.....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 99
07-18-2011, 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnLogan
concerning your dissatisfaction with the c-store business model... I understand how this is unpleasant. I don't have time to present an argument in defense of the cstore model, but at least know that I agree with you to an extent, but I think that it will have its advantages... that is a discussion for another thread and another day. back to work
I think I'll chime in here, and say that the problem is not so much with the C-Store model, but how it's being used. I once tried to articulate this to Rekhan and one of the other devs back when they used the IRC channel, but the consistant trend in STO has been that it's a a Star Trek Game....but only if you buy the additional Star Trek content from the C-Store. If you want the uniforms, the ships, the weapons, etc. that you remember from Star Trek, you are funneled right into the C-Store, and told to pay extra.

In short, Cryptic should not consistently be taunting the playerbase with recognizable Star Trek content, and then throwing it behind the C-Store window. Folks who buy and subscribe to Star Trek Online reasonably expect to have sufficient Star Trek in their Star Trek game; without paying extra. This has not really been the case since launch, and almost all Canon IP content introduced since then has been locked into the C-Store.

A seperate but similar argument can, should, and is made towards adding content to the KDF faction; Until they start approaching the kind of options and depth-of-play that one has on the Starfleet side, it is not reasonable to hold your hat out to the degree that's been implied here; Namely, that if you want ANY customization options for your KDF ships, they will cost extra.

We understand there's a Business going on here, and I personally sympathize with what comes off as fustration at needing more staff to get things like that done, but there's the Axiom of needing to spend money to make money, and Cryptic doesn't seem to be familiar with it. Trying to introduce a new player to the game right now is a daunting task, because they'll ask what all those locked symbols in the character creator mean; When I explain that all those canon uniform parts they want to use all cost extra, they quickly lose interest in subscribing.

The Nickel & Dime mentality that's currently dominating content releases like this is just incredibly fustrating, and almost insurmountable when it comes to getting friends or anyone else interested in playing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 100
07-18-2011, 06:12 PM
I think the C-Store overall would be less annoying to people if ways were added in to earn all the items in it, through accolades or special missions, via crafting, token farming, or combinations of the above.

It seems Dan wants to move in such a direction, but can't unilaterally make that decision. I would speculate its probably an Atari problem, based on passed business practiced of theirs, and hopefully once Cryptic is free of them we'll get some traction on these issues.
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